Hello Joe, ... then perhaps you'll respond to my criticism of your favoured law of seven; if 'do' represents the universe then which celestial structure does 'si' match?
-Peter On 14/04/2008, Joseph Maurer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Peter, > > I am one of the others. Good to hear from you! > > Joe > > > > On 4/12/08 3:28 AM, "Peter Corteen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi Bo and Matt and others, > > > > Matt's definition rings some bells with some thoughts I had: religion is > old > > fashioned science, and after Matt, religion is metaphysics. > > I'm just questioning - not saying it is so - I don't want to push myself > to > > clarify that. Matt's definition of metaphysics as a general framework > > however reduces it from a field of study to just another name for a > person's > > momentary mindset, something that changes as that person's moment to > moment > > situation changes. > > > > I would say that the mindset becomes metaphysics when a person starts to > > reason about their situation and begins to develop an approach or > attitude > > (even the attitude 'no attitude' - Book of Five Rings) they intend to > carry > > into their future. > > > > Bo, the artifacts left by the dead and those arranged in tombs to > > commemorate them is a signature of their self-consciousness. The idea > that > > their self-consciousness indicated an eternal life manifested > temporarily in > > a physical body however, would have been too complicated for them; I > think > > the life eternal was invented as a comforting metaphysics only to give > > reason to the suffering of life and to avoid the apparent futility of > > living. In the end we can only guess about how our ancestor's thought, > and > > today, though conversation with people in the religious mindset is > available > > nevertheless it does not seem to clarify our new metaphysics. > > > > If Pirsig's four levels are seen as evolving levels of being just as > some > > apes may now have intimations of self awareness so we must begin to ask > what > > may be the characteristics of a possible fifth level; certainly an > openness > > to what Doris Lessing called the substance of 'We' feeling and also, I > > suggest, a new way of thinking that seeks to re-incorporate the mind > with > > the body. > > > > -Peter > > > > > > > > On 12/04/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> On 6 Apr 2008 at 15:49, Matt Kundert wrote: > >> > >>> My two definitions: > >> > >>> 1) Metaphysics is the general framework, or understanding, or set of > >>> assumptions, that people unconsciously (with various degrees of > >>> self-consciousness) interpret, or see, or live in the world. As an > >>> activity, it is the attempt to make the unconscious self-conscious > >>> (this activity is also known in some circles as "philosophy"). > >> > >> Talking to Matt is a safe sport, no disturbing replies. However his > >> definition (#1) is pretty good, only I can't get it basic enough. > >> Even Pirsig's "..no-one living in an ordered universe can avoid > >> metaphysics" should have omitted "ordered" because human > >> beings invariably order existence - that's their hallmark. Thus > >> even the old mythologies were metaphysics in this extended > >> sense. > >> > >> An aside): Because only human beings has entered the Q-social > >> level and a mythology requires language I wonder if not language > >> and the social level are intimately connected. A chicken & egg > >> relationship. From now on I use that as my premises. > >> > >> It's said that the first registered burial rituals is a sign - not only > of > >> a notion of an existence beyond, but of an EXISTENCE at all, but > >> as sure is it that early humankind didn't invent the beyond as a > >> comfort against their fear of death, rather that the existence > >> beyond was what confirmed an existence here. Anyone > >> understand the the immensity of this point? > >> > >> As I see it, MOQ's message is that each static level is the > >> creation of a reality different from the one before it and the social > >> level was a shift from biology's non-existential existence (death > >> no issue as an "idea") to one of eternal existence (death as a > >> mere transition to another realm) Thus when the 4th level > >> emerged with its objective outlook that gave death a final "fall > >> from the rim of existence" quality) social value attained a > >> "paradise lost" quality for many. > >> > >> This I believe was behind Phaedrus' identifying the old Aretê with > >> Value itself, and his hatred of SOM that destroyed it. In MOQ this > >> is the social-intellectual transition and my above explains why > >> intellect looks so "valueless" (to regard intellect this way is wrong > >> but enough for now). I just wonder why Pirsig so patently refuses > >> to compare ZAMM with the MOQ and so mysteriously downplays > >> the SOM. > >> > >> Anyway. I also believe this to be behind other attempts to > >> systematize the upheaval around this time in history it, for > >> instance Owen Barfield's "Participation Scheme" that fits > >> uncannily with MOQ's social - intellectual stages and because > >> Barfield postulates a "resumption of participation" fits with the > >> MOQ itself, i.e. a return to the holistic "social" view ... although at > >> a higher plane. > >> > >>> 2) Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that attempts to display > >>> the basic, universal, ahistorical underpinnings of reality (this > >>> activity is also sometimes known in some circles as "Platonism," and > >>> in a few circles the acronymic "SOM"). > >> > >> This resembles Pirsig's about the MOQ as a mere theory about > >> the "Quality Reality" that can be divided any way and still be > >> good. Something I deeply disagree with. > >> > >> Bo > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
