Craig, Platt
[Chris]
The role of the intellect is first and foremost to take control over
social
level patterns - and that is also why, from a MOQ perspective, Marxism
(or
any other political philosophy that seeks to subjugate social values in
favour of the intellectual level) is the only logical, and evolutionary
moral way.
[Craig]
"Subjugating social values in favour of the intellectual level" is
notsufficient >justification.
[Chris]
What do you mean? You don't want to create a society that places
intellectual value over social value?
[Craig]
It must do it in a way that does not violate higher intellectual values.
[Chris]
Perhaps, but what would these values be? Human rights? Freedom? You could
line up slogans and I could easily identify all of them as being products of
the intellectual level, sure, but transformed into SOCIAL VALUEPATTERNS.
[Craig]
At this Marxism fails miserably.
How so? When I talk about the Marxist theory I mostly mean the strive
towards abolishing the capitalist system (so that social values such as
profit isn't allowed to subjugate humanity's strive towards knowledge) and
how this is to be done there is different answers to, beginning with classic
Marxism saying we need a several hundred year transition period of socialism
where the social values are reshaped to be more in the intellectual levels
favour - and then there are others. We could discuss Leninism if you wish,
Lenin that I identify as a perfect example of a vessel for the intellectual
level trying to bring intellectual supremacy over social values about. Of
course the conditions weren't there (in Russian and the world) and he
happened to die young and get a rather bad successor, but still.
[Craig]
There'snever a shortage of "isms" or people who want to "subjugate social
values".
I think there is a shortage of people who truly act on behalf of the
intellectual level. Most people only follow social patterns, and most "isms"
only plays on social patterns and values such as "freedom" or "solidarity" -
how many of the followers do you think actually can validate their beliefs
"intellectually" - without resorting to "Given Values" (Social ones to be
sure) and arguments like "because it just IS wrong!" ?
---
A pleasure debating again, my mind was getting dull.
//Chris
---
This thing regarding the nature of the intellectual level has proven to be,
well, difficult - to say the least. I think we can all agree that the nature
of the intellectual level is that of a way of
responding/understanding/seeing/etc Quality in ways that are different to
the ways that the other levels /responds/sees/understands Quality.
Most everyone of you are fully aware of the debate concerning the "Symbol
manipulation" given by Mr Pirsig and other explanations and interpretations
of the nature of the intellectual level - most notably Bodvars SOL.
I myself tend to discard the symbol manipulation explanation because of
the - as I see it - quite obvious reason that this is not in conflict with
anything. The MOQ is a moral order, as we all know, and the different levels
have more or less competing "views" on Quality and how to follow it. Thus I
am inclined to thing along the paths of
"What is not by it's _fundamental nature_ in service of either the
inorganic, the biological or the social level?"
As I said - manipulation of symbols doesn't really cut it for me - where is
the FUNDAMENTAL conflict?
Today I thought about "human nature". Human nature and what thing it is
that is usually connected to the expression that it is in "the human
nature".
The Quest for knowledge. Embedded in us since - well, pretty much always.
This drive that seems to be something that is a fundamental part of what
makes humans humans, and something that - of course - may service our
biological needs and our social standards, but that in essance is separated
from these things, that in essance is something that strives towards
something quite aside from these Patterns of Value. Knowledge for
knowledge's
sake.
I am not sure that it *is* the Intellectual level, but it sure seems to be a
most notable manifestation of it.
Knowledge for Knowledge's sake. Alone.
---
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