Ian to Marsha, I agree / agreed with what you say by the way - just very hard to know how to translate that into actions on an e-mail discussion group, or actions in academic discourse, or actions in "conventional" western life. I try and I do, but it is still nevertheless hard to express in intelligible terms.
In fact your summary here " .... Many of the problems this list is having "defining things" would melt away.The subject/object pov stays intact but can be seen as a workable method in a conventional world not reality itself." says to me that you and DMB are in fact agreeing. It is understandable that confusion is caused by the fact that - to paraphrase - we need definitions in order to discuss the real world, even if in the real world those definitions are insignificant (or much less significant, anyway). "Misplaced concreteness" this is often called. We talk in concrete terms of things that are much more .... err, nebulous, ephemeal, ineffable ... and mistake them for being more concrete and objective than they really are. Ron: That is the whole problem Ian. Right there. The cultural reflex is to grasp for concrete meaning. But, concrete entities do not exist. with MoQ understanding comes description without this fallacy. we understand our words for what they are, descriptors of experience not symbols as things. this gives language more power to describe scientific phenomena without the stigma of concrete entities. Atoms then may be described to behave as if they prefer their bonds. Not that they are conceptualized as autonomous rational entities but rather a description of their observed behavior. when we have the understanding, the language takes care of itself. This goes for any of the MoQ terms including better-ness and Quality. Better-ness is a dynamic term to describe an experience of making choices based on intellectual, social, biological and inorganic "truths" we build through experience. The same may be said of "value" and "Quality". Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
