Krimel 22 July you wrote:
> Bo and anyone else who cares, > I know you see yourself as Pirsig's Apostle Paul but I don't think you > fully appreciate the aptness of the analogy. Paul likely suffered from > frontal lobe seizures and was a bit of a psychotic. He also advanced > ideas that had nothing to do with what the historic Jesus actually > said or did and was in direct conflict with those who actually knew > and understood what the historic Jesus said and did. If we start on the psycho-path, then about everything is due malfunctions in brains, so I think we drop that. About Paul's role you may be correct, he first Christendom certainly was Paulism, but later the more true Jesuism appeared and as you know I maintain that the MOQ sheds a new light on his role. In the old "social" reality he was regarded in the traditional god role - capable of magical acts - but he was really an intellectual pioneer out of this social reality, something that eventually transformed the original Semitic religion to an intellect-pattern. > Your notion that SOM IS a "level" just doesn't fly. SOM is one > > particular set of "intellectual glasses". The intellectual level, > > whatever that might be, involves wearing a set of intellectual glasses > > not which particular pair one might choose. Your understanding of the Quality Idea is so weak that it's hard to argue with you. But only this; If all ideas, thoughts, world views .. whatever are "intellectual glasses", then religions in the classic sense are such glasses and so were the old Mythologies and whatever "explanations of existence" human beings have ever harbored, and that leaves MOQ's intellectual level meaningless. > In addition Pirsig's portrayal of SOM involves particular problems > with objectivity that are more easily resolved in other ways. In my > opinion objectivity does not refer to TiTs which as Kant rightly > advises us can not be experienced or known directly. TiT? Is that Kant's "thing in itself"? Anyway, the fourth level has evolved through so many stages that it's hard to discern its S/O content at all times. One must understand the enormity of MOQ to see the gigantic scope of the levels. All are still around as part of ourselves, but I find the alleged time when (for instance) the social level was leading edge most useful in conveying what it is what intellect is to be a break with it. The social level has little to do with "municipal services" as some seems to believe, but is - what from intellect looks - irrational, something that is best displayed these days by the islamists, their total devotion and disregard of own safety/life. This we only connect with religion to-day, but was WAS the ancient/myth/social times' very center. For instance in "The Iliad" where the heroes love and hate and fight with total abandon, the "attitude" Pirsig calls Aretê in ZAMM. OK I stray, you continued: > Rather objectivity refers to our shared understanding of things. It is > only possible for each of us to know things through our own individual > experiences. To the extent that we can communicate with one another > about our shared experiences we can construct a picture of an > "objective" external world. This is Bohr's notion that physics does not > teach about what "is" but only what we can "say" about what is. As said, intellect - SOM - has evolved through many phases, I don't know when the subject/object terms entered, nor when it took the mind/matter form, but the point is that notions like Bohr's are depended on the millenniums of speculations about what IS and what just seems to be. A question totally and utterly absent in the ancient, mythological - what MOQ calls - social epoch. It's still present, but this said perspective is needed to understand what's it all about. Matter in the the "substance" sense may have been undermined, but as said to Ian: the conviction that there is a "nature" independent of "culture" is still going strong. And this is about as far as I can manage this time. The rest of your post is very interesting and I will comment it in a few days. Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
