Peter: > Hi Bo, you said: > If we read ZAMM by the understand that it describes intellectual > value > > emerging out of its social origin it's clear that the pre-SOM > > existence (not limited by SOM) is what Pirsig calls Aretê. > To live an impeccable life, a life of excellence: I am far away from > that. Even my ability to comment with authority in these emails is > limited by the knowledge of my personal history that I act > inconsistently and, even according to my own criteria, immorally. To > live with Aretê, as I imagine it, would be to act with spontaneity > i.e. without consideration - 'you lose your push when you beat around > the bush'; such a way of being may be possible if the presence of God > or gods was accepted without question; as soon as you question then > follows dilemma and hesitation. To question the existence of God is to > engage in subject/object metaphysics. Bo: Hi Peter. There has been much academical debate over the Greek "Aretê" term. As in ZAMM it's usually translated into the English "virtue" something Pirsig found too virtuous. In a recent article in "Philosophy Now" it was called valor and it certainly is that too, also duty, but Pirsig said it was something more than duty to king or country, rather toward oneself. Yet it all coalese into something like your above:
"..... the presence of God or gods accepted without question ...etc. Ron: It is amazing how this illustrates the distinction between what is defined and what is read into by the works of the ancient Greeks. Excellence, virtue and arête are actions defined by their surpassing of social and ethical requirements, they excel them. Intellectual? these intellectual qualities Justice, Prudence, temperance, fortitude are what defined the intellectual level before the use of analytic logic. Aristotle's "golden mean" defined intellect as per excellence from social standards via moderation fairness and harmony in action. Aristotle's golden mean In his Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle describes every virtue as a balance point between a deficiency and an excess of a trait. The point of greatest virtue lies not in the exact middle, but at a "golden mean" closer to one of the extremes than the other. E.g.: Courage is the balance between cowardice (deficit of courage) and foolhardiness (excess of courage), lying closer to foolhardiness; Proper pride is the balance between undue humility (deficit of pride) and empty vanity (excess of pride), lying closer to vanity; Generosity is the balance between miserliness (deficit of generosity) and prodigality (excess of generosity), lying closer to prodigality. Prudence and virtue Seneca, the Roman Stoic, said that perfect prudence is indistinguishable from perfect virtue. Thus, in considering all consequences, a prudent person would act in the same way as a virtuous person. The same rationale was followed by Plato in Meno, when he wrote that people only act for what they perceive will maximize the good. It is the lack of wisdom which results in the making of a bad choice, rather than a good one. In this way, wisdom is the central part of virtue. However, he realized that if virtue was synonymous with wisdom, then it could be taught, a possibility he had earlier discounted. He then added "correct belief" as an alternative to knowledge, proposing that knowledge is merely correct belief that has been thought through and "tethered". Which Aristotle achieved with analytics. "Correct belief" is therefore tied to what may be measured and what may not be measured severing virtue from prudence and tethering it to the measurable. Excellence now may be measured; superiority is now a quality of concrete entities totally redefining what it means to be intellectual in Greek society. Going from excellence per the golden mean to analytic method of certainty. Now you can be an intellectual without being socially excellent. Which is what the whole friggn problem with SOM is. Which it is why intellectually it may be more moral to eat your young but it is not a socially excellent intellectual decision. In todays SOM intellect has lost it's prudence and wisdom. Which Eastern culture values over Analytics. The "supereior" SOM is a Frankenstein monster that only does what it's programmed to do and naught else. It values objectivity over wisdom and the mean of social excellence. To SOL Greek virtue does not exist. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
