----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] the subjective
On Sunday 3 August 2008 3:55 AM Marsha writes:
Greetings,
I would like to hear some thoughts about the "subjective experience".
Because the minute I become aware of it, it becomes an object. Seems there
is no way to get at it without falling into an infinite regress. Or when you
become aware of it, it no longer represents the subjective experience.
Conventionally, of course.
In the MOQ it is experience (quality, value, process, etc.).
Thoughts?
Hi Marsha and all,
I am unclear what you mean by Conventionally. My understanding of
convention is culture¹s set of glasses. IMO If awareness is divided by
DQ/SQ how can it create objectivity? By denying that DQ exists? There can
be no order without DQ. There can be no manifestation without an undefined
middle. MOQ is beautiful.
Joe
Greetings Joe,
Yes, the MOQ is beautiful! But I have always been attracted to Eastern
philosophy, initally by Krishnamurti's writings. Now I am finding Buddhism
also beautiful.
<<<Anybody feel free to correct me if what I am writing is confused or
downright wrong.>>>
Within Buddhism there are two truths. (Not a truth and a falsehood, but two
truths.) One of these is the _conventional truth_, which is the ordinary
empirical truth about the world. It is "a truth dependent upon tacit
agreement, an everyday truth, a truth about things as they appear to
accurate ordinary investigation, as judged by appropriate human standards."
I equate _conventional truth_ to the static side of quality.
The other truth is _ultimate truth_. It is characterized by 'emptiness',
and further, by the emptiness of emptiness. The ultimate truth is the "way
things are when they are independent of convention, or to put it another
way, the way things turn out to be when we subject them to analysis with
intention of discovering the nature they have from their own side, as
opposed to the characteristics we impute to them." I equate _ultimate
truth_ to Quality (DQ & sq).
When I wrote, "Conventionally, of course.", I was stating as I investigate
'subjectivity' from the conventional, everyday point-of-view. When I try to
"grasp", or define subjectivity it disappears. It becomes objectified.
Then I might look to see what has objectived it, and again the subjective
experience becomes the object, etc., etc., etc.
The _middle way_ in Buddhism would be between things existing as objects and
things not existing at all. All entities are dependent arisen. 'Every
entity depends for its existence on causes and conditions, upon its parts,
upon wholes to which it belongs, and for its identity on **nominal and
conceptual imputation and conventions**.' I equate the _middle way_ with
the MOQ as a whole; interrelated, ever-changing static patterns of value
within a ground of Dynamic Quality.
This is my interpretation, augmented by some borrowed text. I hope I
haven't confused you more. It's a bit more than you asked for, but my use
of 'conventionally' is embedded in my struggle to understand Nagarjuna's
MMK. Please ignore if I've made a mess of it.
Marsha
On 8/3/08 3:55 AM, "MarshaV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings,
I would like to hear some thoughts about the "subjective experience".
Because
the minute I become aware of it, it becomes an object. Seems there is no
way
to get at it without falling into an infinite regress. Or when you become
aware of it, it no longer represents the subjective experience.
Conventionally, of course.
In the MOQ it is experience (quality, value, process, etc.).
Thoughts?
Marsha
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
stars.........
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
