Hi Bo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hei Magnus
14 Aug. u wrote:
Hi Bo
"Fuss about about a 5th level". I simply claim that the MOQ is the
metaphysics that has intellect as a subset, consequently it can't be
an intellectual pattern. This makes the MOQ a "meta-level". Try
logic for a change.
So, according to your logic, you wouldn't be able to think about a
thought, or to be self-conscious?
For the umpteenth time the 4th. level is NOT thinking.
I never said it was. I was just using your logic.
You said that MOQ is a metaphysics that has intellect as a subset, and
consequently can't be an intellectual pattern. That is flawed reasoning and
doesn't take into account that intellectual patterns *are* capable of
self-reference, such as thinking about a thought and self-consciousness.
Since you don't allow for intellectual patterns to reference themselves, you end
up having to add a level whenever that happens, and that's just impossible in
the long run.
No, intellectual patterns are simply able to reference (or mean) *any* pattern,
both lower levels, other intellectual patterns and also itself. This is called
recursion and is widely used in computer science. And if a metaphysics doesn't
take that into account, it simply breaks.
Where is
our agreement from long ago when we arrived at the conclusion
that storing, retrieving and manipulation of previous experience
through logical gates is something from deep inside the biological
level and that animals are capable of "thinking" in this sense -
something they actually are - and SOM incapable of explaining this
with its pompous "consciousness" even the butter-on-pork "self-
consciousness".
If I did agree to that, it must have been very early before I had given much
thought to it, i.e. more than 10 years ago.
As said if the MOQ uses this basic thinking as definition it's lost.
As tried to convey to Ron people from/at the logical level (where
emotions dominate) think motivated by emotions and possibly find
reason for their conclusions, but thinking at the intellectual level is
all about arriving at "objective" conclusions. My dictionary say
"distancing oneself from emotions and INSTINCTS, but the latter
is biology and no one is fooled by that, however EMOTIONS
(social level) is the great temptation because SOM has no social
level.
I don't know if this will make things any clearer, there is obviously
some insurmountable obstacle between the MOQ and you ;-)
The day you understand my position and give me some good arguments against it,
you can get away with such comments, but not until then. I'll give you a good
opportunity to do just that soon as I'm writing on a new essay where I try to
define my position, both old stuff but also lots of new.
Magnus
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