[DMB] There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I think its safe to say that some things are better than others.
[Arlo] So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you going to define what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better" use of 15 hours a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo on the hog, playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot sauces? And WHY? If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give me the reasons you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? Is it in the production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you claim "better" to actually BE "better"? [DMB] It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can mean anything at all. [Arlo] And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a weekend in the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all". This is a fair appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as disappearing for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother. [DMB] Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can help psychiatric patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult finds in it. [Arlo] Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy, role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible "reality" of living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds of her/his existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a wealthy real-estate tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at being an omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play" is not simply a frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of activities for adults. [DMB] Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or your friends? [Arlo] It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed activity. Our guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun, competitive without being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is identical to the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here meaningful. Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of work and the drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that give meaning to any "IRL" activity. [DMB] But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain and damage caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help but wonder if virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that. [Arlo] I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these worlds are a response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that psychic isolation of modern life. [DMB] Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that, in some cases, does damage to real sex lives. [Arlo] Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful consequences. If I did nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour I had, I'd likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously isolated. "Porn" is out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of physiological and psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy couples have "porn" sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra is a ongoing best-seller for a reason. [DMB] That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but wonder if people are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating starburst fruit chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you. [Arlo] Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without backing it up. Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out with friends in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really hung-up on physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction you've made. The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library, on the road, or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the value such activity brings to those involved. [DMB] I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully, we aren't just pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it takes place in cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than speak does not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation. [Arlo] Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its value? What if it was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while in an online forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot sauces, peppers, cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had no meaning if I only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in talking to others about such things? Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week participating in that hot pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15 hours a week playing Warcraft? Why? [DMB] In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But virtual LIVES? [Arlo] The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not? [DMB] Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers? [Arlo] If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the one with the problem. [DMB] Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile? [Arlo] Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at times (in a guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy, rich experience. Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is infantile, the same way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on videogames. [DMB] I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking you. It's easy to see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or valuable or anything like that? [Arlo] It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding a motorcycle (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading history books. The meaning is what it brings to those involved. Or if you'd say these other things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
