Dare I suggest something simpler here.
Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts
of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic
experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite
cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination
... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential
to human mental development social and intellectual.
I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies
(second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did
"play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are
bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate
for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is
bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance
between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute
for real life in general.
Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism
and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction.
Ian
On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [DMB]
> There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I
think its safe
> to say that some things are better than others.
>
> [Arlo]
> So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you
going to define
> what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better"
use of 15 hours
> a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo
on the > hog,
> playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot
sauces? And
> WHY?
>
> If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give
me the reasons
> you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies?
Is it in > the
> production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you
claim "better"
> to actually BE "better"?
>
> [DMB]
> It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can
mean anything at
> all.
>
> [Arlo]
> And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a
weekend in
> the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all".
This is a fair
> appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as
disappearing
> for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother.
>
> [DMB]
> Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can
help psychiatric
> patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult
finds in > it.
>
> [Arlo]
> Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy,
> role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible
"reality" > of
> living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds
of > her/his
> existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a
wealthy real-estate
> tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at
being > an
> omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play"
is not simply a
> frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of
> activities for adults.
>
> [DMB]
> Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or
your > friends?
>
> [Arlo]
> It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed
activity. Our
> guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun,
competitive without
> being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is
identical to
> the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here
meaningful.
> Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of
work and the
> drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that
give meaning to
> any "IRL" activity.
>
> [DMB]
> But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain
and > damage
> caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help
but wonder if
> virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that.
>
> [Arlo]
> I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is
> intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these
worlds are a
> response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that
psychic isolation
> of modern life.
>
> [DMB]
> Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that,
in some cases,
> does damage to real sex lives.
>
> [Arlo]
> Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful
consequences. If I did
> nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour
I had, > I'd
> likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously
isolated. "Porn" is
> out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of
physiological > and
> psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy
couples have "porn"
> sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra
is a ongoing
> best-seller for a reason.
>
> [DMB]
> That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but
wonder if people
> are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating
starburst fruit
> chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you.
>
> [Arlo]
> Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without
backing it up.
> Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out
with friends
> in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really
hung-up on
> physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction
you've > made.
>
> The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library,
on the road,
> or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the
value > such
> activity brings to those involved.
>
> [DMB]
> I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully,
we aren't just
> pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it
takes place > in
> cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than
speak does
> not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation.
>
> [Arlo]
> Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its
value? What if it
> was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while
in an online
> forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot
sauces, > peppers,
> cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had
no meaning if I
> only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in
talking > to
> others about such things?
>
> Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week
participating in that hot
> pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15
hours a week
> playing Warcraft? Why?
>
> [DMB]
> In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But
virtual > LIVES?
>
> [Arlo]
> The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not?
>
> [DMB]
> Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers?
>
> [Arlo]
> If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the
one with the
> problem.
>
> [DMB]
> Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile?
>
> [Arlo]
> Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at
times > (in a
> guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy,
rich experience.
> Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is
infantile, the same
> way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on
> videogames.
>
> [DMB]
> I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking
you. It's easy to
> see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or
valuable or
> anything like that?
>
> [Arlo]
> It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding
a motorcycle
> (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading
history books.
> The meaning is what it brings to those involved. Or if you'd say
these other
> things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why?
>
>
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