Dare I suggest something simpler here. Fantasy and role-playing - in mythology, drama, fiction, creative arts of many kinds, mind-games, thought-experiments, psychedelic experiences ... even playing aimless "easy rider" on you favourite cycle / horse / mountain / river ... even pure speculative imagination ... are part of real life for millenia - nothing new there. Essential to human mental development social and intellectual.
I for one, do avoid some of the more immersive role-play technologies (second-life is one .... though I have dabbled there too, and I did "play" civilization" quite a bit for a while). Not because they are bad (see above) but because some of them are too easy to participate for too many hours a day. ie they are "addictive" and addiction is bad, that's the psychological "problem", when people lose the balance between fantasy role-play as a learning experience and as a substitute for real life in general. Like so many people are addicted to logically objective positivism and/or SOMism. Same problem. Pure addiction. Ian On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [DMB] > There is nothing wrong with having a little fun of course, but I think its > safe > to say that some things are better than others. > > [Arlo] > So are you going to define what's better "fun" for me? Are you going to define > what's a better use of my time? Let reask, which is a "better" use of 15 hours > a week, playing in a bluegrass band, brewing beer, riding solo on the hog, > playing warcraft, playing poker, playing poker online, making hot sauces? And > WHY? > > If you're going to define "what's better", DMB, you better give me the reasons > you make this claim. Is it the copresence of corporeal bodies? Is it in the > production of a material artifact? What exactly makes what you claim "better" > to actually BE "better"? > > [DMB] > It's just that I don't understand how these virtual worlds can mean anything > at > all. > > [Arlo] > And my mom doesn't understand how riding a motorcycle alone for a weekend in > the nether regions of Pennsylvania "can mean anything at all". This is a fair > appraisal, but let's just say it lacks meaning FOR YOU, just as disappearing > for a few days on the Harley lacks meaning for my mother. > > [DMB] > Pretending and role playing is necessary for children and can help psychiatric > patients but I don't understand what meaning a normal adult finds in it. > > [Arlo] > Just as in reading a book is itself a "passive" foray into fantasy, > role-playing provides the gamer with the otherwise impossible "reality" of > living a life outside of the corporeal, socio-economic bounds of her/his > existence. When we play Monopoly, we "role-play" at being a wealthy > real-estate > tycoon. When we play Sid Meier's Civilization we "role-play" at being an > omnipresent (but not omnipotent) guider of world events. "Play" is not simply > a > frivolous activity for children, but I'd submit the most meaningful of > activities for adults. > > [DMB] > Can you say anything specific about what it means to you or your friends? > > [Arlo] > It provides a shared social space for geographical distributed activity. Our > guild consists of friends spanning the globe. It is fun, competitive without > being aggressive of violent. You know, any list I give really is identical to > the list I'd give about why I find riding with the HOG club here meaningful. > Social contact, enjoyable activity, "escape" from the demands of work and the > drudgery of day-to-day grinding, the same sorts of things that give meaning to > any "IRL" activity. > > [DMB] > But if guys like Pirsig and Heidegger are right about the pain and damage > caused by alienation and that psychic isolation then I can't help but wonder > if > virtual worlds aren't just a way to mask that. > > [Arlo] > I can't speak for others, but my experience in these virtual worlds is > intensely social. If anything, I can't help but wonder if these worlds are a > response to the pain and damage caused by alienation and that psychic > isolation > of modern life. > > [DMB] > Or take porn, for example. This is an illusion of intimacy that, in some > cases, > does damage to real sex lives. > > [Arlo] > Any activity carried to extremes can bring about harmful consequences. If I > did > nothing but ride my Harley alone in every non-work, waking hour I had, I'd > likely been seen as anti-social, depressed, and dangerously isolated. "Porn" > is > out-of-balance sexuality, a confusion of the merging of physiological and > psychic union with the physiological act itself. But happy couples have "porn" > sex, live vibrant, enjoyable, active sexual lives. The Kama Sutra is a ongoing > best-seller for a reason. > > [DMB] > That's what I mean by meaningless diversions. I can't help but wonder if > people > are eating fruit-flavored candy instead of actual fruit, eating starburst > fruit > chews where a real cherry would be so much better for you. > > [Arlo] > Well, again, you're making a prejudiced assumption here without backing it up. > Why is playing Warcraft like eating a starburst, but hanging out with friends > in the local pub like eating real cherries? You seem to be really hung-up on > physical copresence, or else I'm missing any other distinction you've made. > > The bottomline is that whether online, in a tavern, in a library, on the road, > or in the kitchen, the Quality of the moment is defined by the value such > activity brings to those involved. > > [DMB] > I'd argue that this forum has real nutritional value. Hopefully, we aren't > just > pretending to discuss the MOQ here. That mere fact that it takes place in > cyberspace instead of a physical building and we type rather than speak does > not divert anyone from a good philosophical conversation. > > [Arlo] > Is it that its about "philosophy" that gives this forum its value? What if it > was a forum about cooking? Actually, I participated for a while in an online > forum for hot pepper fanatics where we talked about hot sauces, peppers, > cooking, growing, etc. Was that "meaningful"? Would it have had no meaning if > I > only "pretended" I was a cook and gardener, but found value in talking to > others about such things? > > Take this, DMB, and lets say I spent 15 hours a week participating in that hot > pepper forum. Would that be better, worse, same as if I spent 15 hours a week > playing Warcraft? Why? > > [DMB] > In fact, the medium works quite well for such a purpose. But virtual LIVES? > > [Arlo] > The "Arlo" you know here is a virtual "life". How is it not? > > [DMB] > Fantasy worlds where we become warriors that have magical powers? > > [Arlo] > If you spend no time fantasizing, DMB, I'd say that you are the one with the > problem. > > [DMB] > Wouldn't a psychologist say that's kinda regressive or even infantile? > > [Arlo] > Actually we have a number of psychologists who we play with at times (in a > guild different than ours). Most consider it to be a healthy, rich experience. > Of course, you can find psychologists who say that play is infantile, the same > way you can find ones who blame sex on rock and roll, or violence on > videogames. > > [DMB] > I don't know, just don't get it. I'm skeptical, so I'm asking you. It's easy > to > see how that would be fun, but in what sense is it meaningful or valuable or > anything like that? > > [Arlo] > It is no more, but also no less, meaningful that cooking, riding a motorcycle > (solo or in a group), playing in a bluegrass band, or reading history books. > The meaning is what it brings to those involved. Or if you'd say these other > things should be more meaningful or valuable, then tell me why? > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
