At 02:16 PM 11/16/2008, you wrote:
On Sunday 16 November 2008 12:14 AM Ham writes to Andre and Platt:
<snip>
[Ham]
Yes, but behavioral conditioning of attitudes, phobias, and the like seems
more allied to Eastern mysticism than neuroscience or Western philosophy.
Which brings me to Pirsig's dismissal of metaphysics on the ground that it
is "too mystical". Platt quoted this familiar passage from LILA:
[Platt]
"The first are the philosophers of science, most particularly the group
known as logical positivists, who say that only the natural sciences can
legitimately investigate the nature of reality, and that metaphysics is
simply a collection of unprovable assertions that are unnecessary to the
scientific observation of reality. For a true understanding of reality,
metaphysics is too 'mystical.'"
[Ham]
Actually that's a gross distortion of what classical metaphysics is -- all
the worse for a philosopher seeking to advance a Metaphysics of Quality.
Compare this description of metaphysics from answers.com:
[answers.com]
"Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution
of reality - i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real. The term,
which means literally 'what comes after physics,' was used to refer to the
treatise by Aristotle on what he himself called 'first philosophy.' In the
history of Western philosophy, metaphysics has been understood in various
ways: as an inquiry into what basic categories of things there are (e.g.,
the mental and the physical); as the study of reality, as opposed to
appearance; as the study of the world as a whole; and as a theory of first
principles."
[Ham]
I ask you, what is "mystical" about this approach to understanding? Just
because metaphysics is not Science doesn't make it mystical. Nor is
metaphysics "anti-Science". Indeed, we got to Science along the path of
logic and intuitive reasoning laid out by Aristotle. This has been a sore
point with me since I started reading Pirsig. Platt's point that the MoQ
"says that reality is prior to conception and is therefore immediate,
intuitive, undeliberate and involuntary" is well taken. What Pirsig calls
"pre-intellectual experience" (but is really
value-sensibility) is not a trance state, not "altered consciousness", not
mystical contemplation. It is man's attempt to apply intellect and logic to
a fundamental understanding of reality -- in this instance, based on the
values that drive human behavior.
Thanks for your analysis of the SOM formulation as related to the NLP
concept.
Best regards,
Ham
Hi Ham, Platt, and all,
[Joe]
Aristotle divided thought into various categories, one of them being
Metaphysics. answers.com..metaphysics has been understood in various
ways: as an inquiry into what basic categories of things there are (e.g.,
mental and physical); etc.
[Joe]
IMO Pirsig eliminated the ³mental² category by substituting four levels of
evolution in the ³physical² category which are ³mystically² perceived.
³Mystically² is an analogy for the way we perceive different levels of
existence. ³Conscious² is another analogy for ³mystically². I am conscious
in earth, water, air, fire, or inorganic, organic, social, intellectual
realities. Conscious is contrasted to Mechanical, not as ³mental to
physical² but as undefined (mystical) to defined knowledge.
Aristotle's perception of the four transcendentals: thing (res), one (unum),
true (verum), good (bonum) was a mystical perception.
Joe
Greetings Joe,
Isn't consciousness a mental state?
Marsha
On 11/16/08 12:14 AM, "Ham Priday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, but behavioral conditioning of attitudes, phobias, and the like seems
> more allied to Eastern mysticism than neuroscience or Western philosophy.
> Which brings me to Pirsig's dismissal of metaphysics on the ground that it
> is "too mystical". Platt quoted this familiar passage from LILA:
>
> "The first are the philosophers of science, most particularly the group
> known as logical positivists, who say that only the natural sciences can
> legitimately investigate the nature of reality, and that metaphysics is
> simply a collection of unprovable assertions that are unnecessary to the
> scientific observation of reality. For a true understanding of reality,
> metaphysics is too 'mystical.'"
>
> Actually that's a gross distortion of what classical metaphysics is -- all
> the worse for a philosopher seeking to advance a Metaphysics of Quality.
> Compare this description of metaphysics from answers.com:
>
> "Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution
> of reality - i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real. The term,
> which means literally 'what comes after physics,' was used to refer to the
> treatise by Aristotle on what he himself called 'first philosophy.' In the
> history of Western philosophy, metaphysics has been understood in various
> ways: as an inquiry into what basic categories of things there are (e.g.,
> the mental and the physical); as the study of reality, as opposed to
> appearance; as the study of the world as a whole; and as a theory of first
> principles."
>
> I ask you, what is "mystical" about this approach to understanding? Just
> because metaphysics is not Science doesn't make it mystical. Nor is
> metaphysics "anti-Science". Indeed, we got to Science along the path of
> logic and intuitive reasoning laid out by Aristotle. This has been a sore
> point with me since I started reading Pirsig.
> Platt's point that the MoQ "says that reality is prior to conception and is
> therefore immediate, intuitive, undeliberate
and involuntary" is well taken.
> What Pirsig calls "pre-intellectual experience" (but is really
> value-sensibility) is not a trance state, not "altered consciousness", not
> mystical contemplation. It is man's attempt
to apply intellect and logic to
> a fundamental understanding of reality -- in this instance, based on the
> values that drive human behavior.
>
> Thanks for your analysis of the SOM formulation as related to the NLP
> concept.
>
> Best regards,
> Ham
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