Good man Ian.
On 26 Nov you spoke:.
> Nice try Bo, but getting desperate if you need Platt's defence and you
> need to start accusing those you are debating with of simply being
> "faithful" ... I'd be careful with the personal insults if I were you,
> I was still trying to help.
I have never joined the anti-Platt faction which is based on political
preferences and irrelevant for our lofty discussion. And what's the
point of these fatherly admonishing? Where's the insults?
> So to dismiss Platt's defence.
> Pirsig does not say "the intellectal level" He says "this intellectual
> level" Referring to the state of the predominant pattern (SOM) in the
> intellectual level post WW2 (absolutely explicitly). We are always "In
> Our Time". Do we have to go over this historical axis again Bo, I
> thought we'd agreed there.
I trust Platt's quote (my own digital LILA has collapsed from overuse -
abuse ;-) and Pirsig actually says THE before saying this.
"What had happened since the end of World War I was
that the intellectual level had entered the picture and
had taken over everything. It was this intellectual level
that was screwing everything up."
Even worse if you postulate several intellectual levels, but I guess you
mean patterns. Still, this is disastrous as it turns the 4th. level into
some neutral (valueless) vessel that contains SOM and MOQ as
different "intellectual patterns". That would be like life and death inside
the same level.
> Just the usual despicable "Platteral shift" going on. Don't get drawn
> into the dirty tricks Bo, you're above that. Apology in order for
> calling me an animal too ;-) How about it Bo ? Ian
You don't refrain from insults yourself regarding Platt, but I know he
doesn't mind it the least and at time I think this discussion gets a bit
bland, everyone agreeing with the last honored speaker.
Bo
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:59 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Platt, Steve, Horse and the whole menagerie.
> >
> > 25 Nov.
> >
> > Steve had said:
> >> > Let's be clear, the MOQ does not make SOM the intellectual level.
> >> > Only the unnecessary and wrong-headed SOLAQI interpretation does
> >> > this. The intellectual level of Pirsig's MOQ is the collection of
> >> > all intellectual patterns of value.
> >
> >> In Lila Pirsig wrote:
> >
> >> "What had happened since the end of World War I was that the
> >> intellectual level had entered the picture and had taken over
> >> everything. It was this intellectual level that was screwing
> >> everything up."
> >
> >> Doesn't look to me like a "collection of all intellectual patterns
> >> of value" is doing the screwing. Rather it seems clear that Pirsig
> >> identifies the intellectual level with amoral SOM -- the modern
> >> trance state.
> >
> >> I would go so far as to say that unless the intellectual level is
> >> acknowledged to be the same as SOM, Pirsig's entire analysis of our
> >> societal problems and his proposed MOQ solution goes down the
> >> toilet.
> >
> >> Then what have a got? Not much of value other than the fun of
> >> philosophical debate. Maybe that's all we should expect, but I was
> >> hoping for more.
> >
> > Wow, Platt's matter-of-fact style does much better than my shouthing
> > from mountains. I respect Steve's and Horse's defending the Faith,
> > but Pirsig is about as vague as Jesus and as this quote shows he
> > does regard the intellectual level as SOM ... except when asked
> > directly when it again turns into "intellectual patterns" and the
> > circle is closed.
> >
> > Nuff said
> >
> > Bo
> >
> >
> >
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