Greetings Mel,
Another great post. I think what I found most agreeable in Krimel's
post was "... the past is just as indeterminate as the future." And
his statement against making definitive conclusions about ancient
writings. You've made some interesting points too.
To me it is more and more being understood as story-telling. And
that would be my point. It is not real. interesting
interpretations, but not real. It should be understood that scholars
have their vested interest, too. Patterns are patterns, not absolute truth.
Marsha
On Fri Jan 9 22:20:26 PST 2009, Mel wrote:
Krimel,
<snip>
[Krimel]
> Aside from being overtly anti-Semitic it echoes the kind of cultural
> chauvinism one expects to hear from Platt and Ham. Pointing to extreme
> orthodox Jews as representing Jewish imperviousness the intellect is a bit
> like claiming the Pat Robinson represents all Christian thinking or that
Bo
> speaks for the MoQ.
mel:
The diversity of Jewish thinking/culture/groups, both
now and throughout their long history makes any
'critique' problematic. We also have a conditioned
response from the twentieth century of being overly
sensitive to any critique of anything Jewish as a
likely 'anti-semitism'
(Several years back my daughter's boyfirend was
slamming the Jews in one of the Israeli religious
parties of their Likud and a woman from the next
table rounded on him in the restaurant and really
got in his face about his anti-semitism. He let
her finish her tirade, non-plussed, and pulled out
his Israeli Passport, then told her she did not know
much about Jews or Israel if she thought what he'd
said was anti-semetic. He is Jewish. To him it was
slamming a political group, like we might hear
someone slamming Falwell or Robertson...)
Krimel:
> Only the truly clueless would claim that the Muslim world is cursed with
> lack of intellect. The Muslims were making advances in philosophy and
> mathematics while Europeans were eating with their hands and fretting
about
> witches. Ever heard of Arabic numerals? The Renaissance you like to go on
> about was touch off in part because the Crusaders picked up the Greeks
from
> the Arabs who had been studying and commenting on them for centuries.
mel:
This is not quite right. There IS a strong anti-intellectual
tradition in many Arabic Muslim clerical lines. This is a
significant part of the modern unrest within the Muslim
world. Many Muslims want to embrace certain western
forms and look forward to a rennaisance of their own.
Others want to do just what they did in the 17th century
and purge the foreign thoughts and learning from their
society and return to a fundamental recreation of the
7th Century. (They succeded that time.)
The Muslim golden age was far less Arab, when you
examine it closely, than what we were left with the
impression of in survey level courses.
(Not to say there were no Arabs involved in it, but
despite taking an "arabic name" a significant portion
of their movers and shakers were of other cultures.
a la melting pot.)
The Libraries of Constantinople provided most
of the texts that kick-started the Renaissance.
Although many texts were translated earlier, hence
the Muslims learned about Zero. (related by Greeks
from the invention in Babylon) Most of the Muslim
exposure to Greek thought was also from
Constantinople, but unlike the West they turned
away after two centuries of dabbling.
While we learned about the 'Arabic' numerals,
again they claimed them, but the system came
from India. The older Indian numerals look like
ours, the Arabic interpretations are too stylized
to recognize aside from 1-2-3.
In researching a book I was writing, I did quite
a bit of reading about Eastern Mediterranean
History and was surprised by how similar the
Arabs were to the old stereotype Soviet, claiming
to have invented everything in a sort of
chip-on-the-shoulder or inferiority complex way.
Someone who has studied more extensively
could probably do more justice to what is
Muslim non-Arab versus Muslim Arab, and
even add Arabic Jews and Arabic Christians
to the mix of tracing cultural contributions.
(Kind of like how: much of Roman culture was
immitation of Greek and much of American
culture is anything but American in origin.)
The genius of their culture, in it's most
progressive age, was to gather talent from
all over and exploit the synthesis of Dynamic
and unsettled new possibilities. But later,
when the dis-logic of clerics came to rule
even the Static patterns were degraded.
(If you want to blow your mind, read the
Islamic theological basis for science and
you will learn that genies and supernatural
beings make the universe behave as it does.
Gravity and electromagnetism are myths of
the west.)
Krimel:
> Most of the anti-Muslim ranting that goes on in this forum is reminiscent
of
> American attempts to dehumanize the Japs and the Gooks and the Krauts and
> the injuns, and the darkies and everyone else we have sought to slaughter
> with a clear conscience.
>
mel:
There seems a lot of mutual demonization.
Might even think of it as a high quality soclal pattern.--One
society versus another. Those who want war love
extremism, it plays into their hands.
thanks--mel
>
.
.
Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who
strive for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
.
.
.
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