Mel and group 9 Jan.
[Krimel] before > > Aside from being overtly anti-Semitic it echoes the kind of cultural > > chauvinism one expects to hear from Platt and Ham. Pointing to > > extreme orthodox Jews as representing Jewish imperviousness the > > intellect is a bit like claiming the Pat Robinson represents all > > Christian thinking or that mel: > The diversity of Jewish thinking/culture/groups, both now and > throughout their long history makes any 'critique' problematic. We > also have a conditioned response from the twentieth century of being > overly sensitive to any critique of anything Jewish as a likely > 'anti-semitism' > (Several years back my daughter's boyfirend was slamming the Jews in > one of the Israeli religious parties of their Likud and a woman from > the next table rounded on him in the restaurant and really got in his > face about his anti-semitism. He let her finish her tirade, > non-plussed, and pulled out his Israeli Passport, then told her she did > not know much about Jews or Israel if she thought what he'd said was > anti-semetic. He is Jewish. To him it was slamming a political group, > like we might hear someone slamming Falwell or Robertson...) I like your approach to this sensitive issue. There is secular Israel which - in a MOQ light - is as Q-intellect-steeped as any and there is the orthodox Jews who are as Q-social (religiously) value steeped as such comes. The fact that Krimel accuses me of clueless and anti-semitism is OK, he is here to flaunt his great orthodox knowledge that sees non-intellect as non-intelligent. Krimel: > > Only the truly clueless would claim that the Muslim world is cursed with > > lack of intellect. The Muslims were making advances in philosophy and > > mathematics while Europeans were eating with their hands and fretting > > about witches. Ever heard of Arabic numerals? The Renaissance you like > > to go on about was touch off in part because the Crusaders picked up the > > Greeks from the Arabs who had been studying and commenting on them for > > centuries. mel: > This is not quite right. There IS a strong anti-intellectual > tradition in many Arabic Muslim clerical lines. This is a significant > part of the modern unrest within the Muslim world. Many Muslims want > to embrace certain western forms and look forward to a rennaisance of > their own. Others want to do just what they did in the 17th century > and purge the foreign thoughts and learning from their society and > return to a fundamental recreation of the 7th Century. (They succeded > that time.) This is the point of my Jesus talk. He gave intellect a religious terminology that pried the Christian branch loose from Judaism. This is a huge issue, but the short of it is that he became the focus of the later renaissance of intellect. Intellect could not have managed it with a direct head-on assault on the social citadel "religion" without this secret agent within it. A muslim "renaissance of their own" is to be hoped for, but without a rebel with a similar cause?? The religious "window of opportunity" seems to be closed. > The Muslim golden age was far less Arab, when you examine it closely, > than what we were left with the impression of in survey level courses. > (Not to say there were no Arabs involved in it, but despite taking an > "arabic name" a significant portion of their movers and shakers were of > other cultures. a la melting pot.) This and the rest of your post is excellent, your factual knowledge far exceeds mine. I just keep your last paragraph mel: > There seems a lot of mutual demonization. Might even think of it as a > high quality soclal pattern.--One society versus another. Those who > want war love extremism, it plays into their hands. It's quite a juggling act to keep MOQ and SOM (the intellectual level out of its Q context) apart. For SOM there are no levels, just the culture/nature distinction (among a welter of other S/Os) and as this discussion shows see all suggestions of non-intellect as an offense. But as shown there are and IMO the present hot war in the Middle East is caused by the two Q-social patterns orthodox Jewdom and Islam who both claim divine "license to kill" . Under it runs the intellect vs social frontlines that are infinitely more complex. Through the middle of Israel, between the rational- pragmatic Fatah and fanatic Hamas and in and out every nook and cranny of that region. Thanks Mel ...we are allied until further notice ;-) Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
