> Platt to Andre: > Yes, we are static patterns of Quality. But we are not DQ. DQ is > something > we perceive and, under some circumstances, respond to. > > Andre: > Hi Platt, I like this beginning. It points to something that has bothered > me > for a while, the resolution of which needs to be thrashed out here > because > if we don't, the MoQ will be just another philosophical brick in the > wall, > or just another philosophical picture on the wall. And it ain't. > I'll try to explain it below but cannot promise many quotes. It has to > do > with the interpretation of these quotes. > > Platt: > Otherwise, how to explain: > "This, Phaedrus thought, was why little children are usually quicker to > PERCEIVE Dynamic Quality than old people, why beginners are usually > quicker > than experts, why primitive people are sometimes quicker than those of > 'advanced' cultures." (Lila, 9) > > Andre: > My interpretation of this quote is that Pirsig argues for LESS > intellectualisations (conceptualisations,rationalisations, evaluations,) > as > is the case with old people and 'advanced' cultures since these only > obstruct the perception of DQ. I interpret the 'perception of' to mean > 'have > feeling for'/ 'be open to'. Remember Zen's Beginners Mind? Remember > Pirsig's > value traps? One of them is value rigidity. Children do not have this > (they > haven't gone through the hypnotists educational factory yet). "Primitive > ' > societies do not have this either. That's why they are probably called > 'primitive'.(by educated anthropologists). > Value rigidity..'is an inability to revalue what one sees because of > commitment to previous values' (ZMM, p304). Old people and advanced > cultures > have these values. Children, unconsciously have/see/feel only one value > and > that is Dynamic. (That is why they are little, selfish exhausting, > loveable bastards sometimes!).
Love your description of children. But I take the meaning of "perceive" as "see" or "sense." DQ is not something experienced all the time by all humans. It's only perceived (seen, sensed) at certain times by certain people under certain circumstances. That's how I interpret the quote. > Platt: > "The patterns of life are constantly evolving in RESPONSE to something > 'better' than that which these laws have to offer." (Lila, 11) > > Andre: > Agree, and Pirsig is very consistent in his analysis and exposition of > this. > 'All life is a migration of static patterns of quality toward Dynamic > Quality (Lila, p143). And how do they do this? Read his analysis of what > happens at the quantum level; 'Particles 'prefer' to do what they do. An > individual particle is not absolutely committed to one predictable > behaviour' (p107). > > Now read p106: 'Lila is a judge. That's who lay here beside him tonight: > a > judge of hundreds of millions of year's standing...' Lila judges, not in > the > sense of passing a verdict but in terms of picking and choosing...who > is/what is better? She shows preference! She responds and it is in this > response that DQ is experienced. > Added to this comes the 'mystical' component upon which a large part of > the > MoQ is based (Interview Pirsig in On the Road DVD). > Dharma is equated with Quality itself and on p 391 Pirsig writes: 'It > [dharma] is sometimes used as a purely moral concept and stands for right > or > virtuous conduct which leads to some form of good as a result'. > In this context we are all composed of patterns of dharma (SQ) responding > to > DQ. But this relationship is not one of responding from 'in here' to > 'out > there'.This dualism does not exist in the MoQ. It is DQ/SQ. The only > 'difference is, the one is unpatternd (DQ) the other is patterned (SQ). > The > one exists in the other and the other exists in the one. One cannot respond or "judge" that which one doesn't perceive (see comment above.) Also, recall Pirsig's explanation of why judgments vary from person to person due to "different static patterns of life history." I'd say Lila's life history was "colorful" to say the least. But even if not, her history "colors" her judgment (evaluation) as it does all our judgments. I doubt if DQ is much involved in her judgment of Pirsig as a lover. > Platt: > As for DQ being a force, like energy, one need only refer to such > statements as: > "Biological evolution can be seen as a process by which weak DYNAMIC > FORCES > at the subatomic level DISCOVER strategems for overcoming huge static > inorganic forces at a superatomic level." (Lila, 11) > and > "Natural selection is Dynamic Quality AT WORK." (Lila, 11) > > "Although Dynamic Quality, the Quality of freedom, CREATES THIS WORLD in > which we live, these patterns of static quality, the quality of order, > preserve our world." (Lila, 9) > > Andre: > Absolutely and there is no contradiction here. Pirsig merely reinforces > the > workings at the quantum level which manifest themselves with greater > variety > and freedom at subsequent levels; i.e exercising preference and, when > successful, exploiting and 'latching' the advance gained. This is how > the > world has been created. Yes, but note Pirsig refers Dynamic forces, not quantum forces. > Platt: > Pirsig makes it clear through the story of the brujo and in other places > that it is the individual responding to the creative force of DQ that is > currently driving social and intellectual evolution. > > Andre: > Yes, and following on from the above when talking about Lila: 'There's > something ferociously Dynamic going on with her (p165-6): the same thing > was > happening with the brujo (his 'stange' behaviour) and Pirsig says:' He > was > just following some vague sense of 'betterness' that couldn't have been > defined if he had wanted to'. > This 'sense' of betternes was 'sensed' inside used in the sense of > dharma > and Quality. (DQ/SQ) Yes. (See comment about "perceive" above.) > Platt: > If someone has a contrary view, they ought to be able to support it with > the evidence of quotations from Pirsig's writings after ZMM when he > discovered the existence of Dynamic and static quality within the > broader > category of Quality. > > Andre: > And this is the problem Platt: It is not Quality/ MoQ. NO!!! Agree. But to quote Pirsig: "There are two basic kinds of Quality, an undefined Quality called Dynamic Quality, and a defined quality called static quality." > '...Dynamic good and static good...became the basic division of his > emerging Metaphysics of Quality. > 'Not subject and object but static and Dynamic is the basic division of > reality'. (p119). Agree. A quote from Lila I believe, as opposed to the classic/romantic split in ZMM which Pirsig later rejected. > And the subject/ object became static patterns of value, and Dq 'is a > referring term for immediate experience' i.e. DQ (McWatt,1999) Quality is immediate experience. For the sake of writing a metaphysics that McWatt could in turn write a thesis on, Quality is divided into dynamic/static. > No more 'ins and outs', pre-concept/concept, abstract/concrete. NO!!! > DQ/SQ! Agree. > Platt: > As you say, Andre, DQ is not something "out there." It is part of the > Quality experience. But it not part of everyday experience. It's rare > and > wonderful: > "It was applied to manifestations of skill, fortune, blessing, luck, to > any > wondrous occurrence. It connoted any phenomenon that transcended the run > of > everyday experience. In other words, 'Dynamic Quality.' " (Lila, 9) > > Andre: > No qualms here Platt. Some profound/ religious/ mystical experiences do > not > occur every day. And I do not rely on those to get me out of bed every > morning...but sometimes...you just never will know. Yes, you just never know. A great way to put it in a nutshell, Andre, backed by another Pirsig quote: "Dynamic Quality, the source of all things, the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality, always appears as 'spur of the moment.' Where else could it appear?" (Lila, 11) . More to thrash out I'm sure. Thanks. Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
