Hi Marsha, That doesn't sound very much like Emptiness to me, it sounds very full. It's just a semantic confusion on my part. "Empty of inherent existence"(?). Does it exist?
Here is some of what the Tao says about emptiness, a translation I'm afraid (and different translation give me different feelings). >From section 4: "The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used but never filled Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things" (ten thousand things is just Lao Tzu way of saying everything, it is translated differently elsewhere, as "all things") >From section 11: "Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub; It is the center hole that makes it useful. Shape the clay into a vessel; It is the space within that makes its useful. Cut doors and windows for a room; It is the holes which make it useful. Therefore profit comes from what is there; Usefulness from what is not there." This is of course a metaphor, which I understand better than logical words for spiritual stuff. I have used the Tao for over 30 years for spiritual understanding, and it is still my main source. I am hoping that MoQ is a western system I can use for understanding. Do you have a metaphor for your kind of Emptiness? Thanks, Willblake2 On Apr 18, 2009, at 1:59:18 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Will, No, not like the inside of a bowl, not that kind of empty, not empty space, but empty of inherent existence. Andre's description of DQ works well for how I understand Emptiness, "It is the continually changing flux of immediate experience...unpatterned, undefined." I do not know very much about the Tao. Marsha At 03:16 PM 4/18/2009, you wrote: >Hi Marsha, > >Emptiness is fine with me, if I understand what you mean. The >inside of a bowl is empty >as the Tao would say. > >Willblake2 > >On Apr 17, 2009, at 12:24:48 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >Will, > >I didn't know anything of Buddhism until I read Nagarjuna's >MKK. Emptiness seems intuitively right to me. Since then I've read >plenty more and my intuitive attraction just gets stronger. The >Buddhist traditions, the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, are >beautiful and I try to follow as best I can, but it is the logic that >has bitten me. I see Quality synonymous with Emptiness, and >experience as primary. > > >Marsha > > > >At 01:43 AM 4/17/2009, you wrote: > >HI Marsha, > > > >My understanding and experience of Buddhism, is the release from > >clinging. When the wind blows, I feel cold. To a Buddhist, the > >wind blows right through him. The most recent Buddha was obsessed > >with suffering and wanted to be released from it. Some of my most > >meaningful learning and experiences have come through suffering; I > >welcome it, knowing it is temporary . > > > >Buddhist live on a flat line, I live on a wave, up and down, yin and > >yang. I often feel that Buddhist are the ultimate escapists, like > >heroin addicts, who only want to experience peace and joy. I > >suppose this is OK for some, but is it real? Buddhism is all about > >doing things the "right" way, as the fourth noble truth > >teaches. Many that I know are truly happy with this kind of > >discipline, and often say they are enlightened, which I am sure they > >are. But we are all enlightened. Our spiritual awakening came when > >we entered this world. > > > >I am not quite sure what Quality has to do with Buddhism, at least > >as I understand it. For me it is more like Taoism. > > > >I love Cervantes. I live in a polytheistic world, serpents and saints.. > > > >Cheers, > >Willblake2 > > > > > >On Apr 15, 2009, at 11:04:35 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >Greetings Willblake2, > > > >What do we know and how do we know it? > > > >You are correct, scientist, philosopher and theologian want to answer > >these questions. The only concept I haven't been able to debunk is > >the Buddhist's Emptiness, and the MOQ reigns supreme because it > >includes emptiness as DQ. But I, like Don Quixote, find all these > >other concepts both noble and fearsome, heathens and wizards and > >serpents of sin! > > > >I am I, Don Quixote, > >The Lord of La Mancha, > >My destiny calls and I go, > >And the wild winds of fortune > >Will carry me onward, > >Oh whithersoever they blow. > >Whithersoever they blow, > >Onward to glory I go! > > > >It is all interesting, and I too love thinking it through as best I > >can. For the moment I live on the Isle of the Blessed. But as I > >have been listening to all these lectures on the history of > >scientific theory (science wars) I am wondering how things would look > >in the modern times if Quality and the MOQ had their day in the > >sun. It is time... > > > >Daffodils to you, Will. > > > > > >Marsha > > > > > > > > > >At 09:59 PM 4/15/2009, you wrote: > > >Hi Marsha, > > > > > >Actually it is my own closed minded opinion. Stewart is just a > > >mathematician. I don't see any difference between science, > > >philosophy, and religion. They all try to construe reality > > >through labels. We try to believe that those labels are real, > > >and somehow more than just nerve connections firing in patterns. > > >My mind is closed to thinking that perhaps all these labels > > >are very different from each other, and represent > > >alternatives. My opinion is that they are all the same. I don't > > >think I can label one as good and the other as bad. I label them > > >as useful and enjoyable to me, or not. > > > > > >It is fun, however, to create sides and argue the merits of one > > >over the other. That is all that I am doing here. > > > > > >Your posts are a joy in my day! > > > > > >Willblake2 > > > > > > > > >On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:27:14 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >Greetings Will, > > > > > >Oh right, that would be Ian Stewart's opinion. There are lots of > > >opinion. This is how the conflict is labeled, but my mind is > open. Is yours? > > > > > > > > >Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > >At 02:12 AM 4/15/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > > > >Science Wars? Science, philosophy, religion, they are all on the > > same side. > > > >It is all part of mass hysteria. Science and philosophy and religion > > > >are all in it together. They walk hand in hand encouraging their > > prisoners. > > > >They love for it to be considered a war, because one of them has to win > > > >and they don't care which one; they are all the same. Everybody > > is infected > > > >with some kind of thought virus of one kind or another, they are > > > >passing it along > > > >helplessly to the glee of the infector. > > > > > > > >You need a vaccination. Stop pretending its a battle. You know better.. > > > > > > > >Willblake2 > > > > > > > > > > > >On Apr 14, 2009, at 2:51:04 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >Greetings, > > > > > > > >Interesting that the Science Wars didn't take place until the 1990s, > > > >and LILA was written prior to 1991. It seems probably that RMP lead > > > >the way in the attack against Science. Now this is going to be > > > >interesting an interesting area to study. > > > > > > > > > > > >Marsha, > > > >the sophist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >.. > > > >_____________ > > > > > > > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the > > stars............ > > > >.. > > > >.. > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > >Archives: > > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > >Archives: > > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > >.. > > >_____________ > > > > > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the > stars............ > > >.. > > >.. > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > >Archives: > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > >Archives: > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > >.. > >_____________ > > > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars............ > >.. > >.. > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >.. >_____________ > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars........... >.. >.. > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ .. _____________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.......... .. .. 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