Hi Willblake2 (great name) > Hi Platt, > > Just a pet peeve of mine. When I hear "created by the universe", it > sounds like, separate from. We are the universe. We are the big bang in > action. We are not a product of the universe. Otherwise I agree with > you. By the way, which direction is the universe? > > Cheers, > Willblake2
Excellent point. I was taking it from the materialists viewpoint -- you know, their religious faith in the assumptions of time and space. And since we are the universe and possess purpose, ergo the universe is purposeful. As for the direction of the universe, again that depends on your viewpoint. >From the perspective of time, the universe is moving in the direction of becoming better off than before. From the perspective of an immanent and transcendent universe, it is going in all directions and no direction simultaneously. In fact, the concept of simultaneous duality captures the essence of reality as well as anything humans can imagine. For every all there is none, for every one there is many, for every in there is an out, for every matter there is meaning, etc. But, all this is no news to you. Best, Platt > > On Apr 18, 2009, at 3:49:40 PM, "Platt Holden" <[email protected]> > wrote: > KO, Krimel, et al:. > > The universe exhibits purpose in every bug that crawls, every bird that > flies and everyone who posts to moq_discuss. It seems never to occur to > those who are enamored of a materialistic worldview that they were > created > by the universe, are part and parcel of it, and exhibit purpose with > every > breath they take. > > Platt > > > > > -KO > > in Chapter 11 i think Pirsig offers the MoQ as both an underpinning of > > evolutionary theory and as a philosophical explanation of teleology, > and > > i > > can accept both: there is virtual teleology in human life. > > > > [Krimel] > > What Pirsig seems want in his account of evolution is similar to what > he > > wants when talking about iron filings having a "preference". He wants > a > > universe filled with purpose and free will, a universe that can in > some > > sense be held morally accountable. > > > > One of the great tragedies of my life occurred when I was about four. > My > > lifelong friend and companion TaBee had to be thrown away. As he > lingers > > in > > my memory, he was maybe 10 inches tall, black and white and dingy. I > > presume > > that at some stage, outside of my ability to recall, he was clean and > > fuzzy > > and cuddly. I had cuddled him into baldness but even as his fur wore > > away > > and he lost an eye, he was my best friend. It was a harsh lesson > > learning > > that my best friend was not alive. He had no feelings. He could not > talk > > back. He was immune to pain and had no sense of humor. My parents > bought > > me > > a puppy but we lived in a city and the puppy ran out to the road. That > > was > > that. In the end the "death" of TaBee was harder than the death of > that > > nameless pup. Sadly, no amount of rationalization then or now can > > breathe > > life and purpose into an iron filing or a teddy bear. > > > > -KO > > When i am between > > the horns of a dilemma it does not make sense to say that all those > > transient quarks that momentarily comprise me are working together on > my > > behalf to find a solution to my problem - its only slightly more > > understandable to consider that all my genes are together busy > > calculating > > to help me; no, it really only makes proper sense to say that 'I', the > > complete individual, is trying to come to a decision. In this sense, i > > think, we do have purpose and intention. > > > > [Krimel] > > We as creatures find it much easier to relate to other creatures. > > Preference > > and intention are so integral to our nature that we see them in > > everything. > > When my computer acts funky, and what computer doesn't, I swear at it. > > But > > this is just metaphorical. My laptop, which has replaced the bygone > TaBee > > as > > my new best friend, does many things that are in fact "lifelike". I > talk > > about it thinking and taking its own sweet time. But that is just the > > echo > > of my inner child. Any philosophy that attempts to imbue the universe > > with > > purpose and intent is just regressing to the intellectual equivalent > of > > sucking its thumb. > > > > But the problem with this regression runs deeper. To use your example, > > let's > > say my genes and the cells that comprise me are all agents of free > will > > with > > desires and preferences all their own. Those desires and purposes have > > almost nothing to do with me. My purposes and desires may be > completely > > at > > odds with those of my genes. I might get a vasectomy and my genes can > > just > > blow it out their tiny spiraled asses. When I desire to drink too > much, > > my > > brain cells are sacrificed like prisoners of war on an Aztec holy day. > > My > > purposes and desires take precedence over my cells and genes. Or if > they > > decide to run amok and cluster into malignant tumors, their hopes and > > dreams > > can put an end to mine. There is little or no overlap. > > > > We have a long history of reading purpose and intent into the > inanimate > > world. Ancient peoples made gods and goddess of forces of nature but > in > > the > > end those forces are so capricious and at odds with human purpose that > > the > > tales of their deeds wind up sounding ironic. Whatever purpose and > > consciousness the timeless universe might have I am pretty sure it has > > nothing good to do with me. Seeing it as alive and intentional might > help > > me > > feel kinship to it. It might give me some emotional security or the > hope > > that if I can relate to it well enough I can sway its judgments and > bend > > its > > will to mine. Like everyone else I am drawn to the Myth of Control. If > I > > cannot control my fate perhaps I can suck up to the powers that do. > > > > It has been a hard lesson for humanity to shake loose of this illusion > > of > > consciousness in the inanimate world. I think it is childish to try to > > resurrect it. > > > > [KO] > > All this not withstanding the fact > > that there is no detectable trace of a wispy 'I' pervading my brain or > > body > > and therefore that 'I' is really illusory along with any will-power i > > appear > > to have. The wikipedia page on Teleology refers to this viewpoint as > > 'intrinsic finality'. > > > > [Krimel] > > Right, there is that watered down version of teleology that would > > classify > > the Heat Death as teleology. Unfortunately I don't think that is the > kind > > of > > teleology Pirsig is seeking to prop up. I think he is trying to > construct > > a > > philosophical thumb to suck. > > > > But don't let me get away with ignoring your point about the illusory > > "I". > > "I" just don't have time for that ATM. > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
