Hi Krimel,

You pose one way of interpreting your experience of existence,
that is from the bottom up, order arising into non-order.  The sense
of purpose that you describe is through manipulation, extrapolating 
current experience into future expectations.  It is possible that this
interpretation is not inconsistent with a greater organizational principle.
That is, from the top down.

I believe this is one of the problems that physicists have in unifying the
current theories of the bottom up (quantum mechanics) with the top down
(relativity-gravity).  One belief is that there are fundamental forces which
dictate the shape of the universe, the other belief would be that forces are
incoherent principles and the result cannot be predicted.

What does experience show?  Well, it shows both.  A ball thrown up
must come down, but the choice to throw the ball may not have a
greater force governing it.  Feedback loops are interesting because they
can be viewed from the inside or the outside.  It is a matter of perspective.  
Is
will or intent governed by some personal force or by a greater force?  Are
our minute to minute choices fulfilling the dictates of a larger order, or 
creating the larger order?

When a composer creates a symphony.  Does the symphony already
exist as a possibility or are the possibilities so endless that it doesn't
make sense to say that it already exists.  I would say that there are only
a limited number of possibilities for how the symphony can turn out.
This would mean that the final symphony is being guided is some way.

There may be an overall guidance of emergence and the details are left to us.
We are so limited in what we can do and think, we have to follow certain
rules from a fundamental source (what governs the networks for feedback
systems, for example).  This force is highly manipulative, in exactly
the same way we are manipulative when we create a symphony.  To think that
our "intelligence"  is somehow different from other manipulative forces
would be senseless.  We are not separate from, but part of.

I am with you, Platt.

Cheers,
Willblake2


On Apr 19, 2009, at 8:06:23 AM, Krimel <[email protected]> wrote:
Platt
The universe exhibits purpose in every bug that crawls, every bird that 
flies and everyone who posts to moq_discuss. It seems never to occur to 
those who are enamored of a materialistic worldview that they were created 
by the universe, are part and parcel of it, and exhibit purpose with every 
breath they take. 

[Krimel]
What I have said is that living things may exhibit "purpose" and "intent"
these are properties that emerge for extended networks of feedback systems
inherent in living things. Living things have increasing ability to use the
past to influence the present. That is what a feedback system does. Purpose
and intent are products of increasingly sophisticated feedback systems. But
what generates the increase in complexity here and now is the constant
influx of solar energy. My ongoing point is that purpose emerges from the
bottom up; it is not about some higher purpose of the universe filtering and
fading down to us.



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