Hi Arlo, I'm still confused about this right wing left wing notion. I am neither. We have agreed that there is good PC and bad PC. Let's leave it at that.
Thanks, Willblake2 On May 7, 2009, at 6:29:46 AM, "ARLO J BENSINGER JR" <[email protected]> wrote: [WIllBlake][ First let me say, that my original email on this subject was a comment on the current state of Political Correctness as used by both sides. [Arlo] And my original comment was simply that "PC", used by both sides, is a broad concept that ranges from sensitivity training about dealing with the mentally-handicapped to having garbagemen become "sanitation engineers" to affirmative action to the venomous assaults on the Dixie Chicks and Bill Maher. As such, being "against PC" is just empty rhetoric. If you define "PC" as simply only being those instantiaions that you personally disagree with, you are left with a ridiculous view of "PC", such as Platt has. It leaves you getting all wadded up about Miss California but turning a blind eye to the Dixie Chicks. If our conversation is nearing its end, this has been my only point. If there are specific abuses or extreme examples of "PC" you feel are wrong, by all means, THOSE can be talked about. Its much more substantive to talk about the abusive assault on the Dixie Chicks or affirmative actions as examples of "bad PC" than make empty (or ideologically skewed) condemnations about "PC". That's a strawman. [WillBlake] I am using the term as used in a pejorative sense. That is as manipulative tool to gain what one wants, used by all sides of the political spectrum. [Arlo] I understand this, but again the "sensitivity training" I mention that followed my personal experience with the assaults on a mentally-handicapped child are, in fact, "PC", but as I've repeatedly said are an example of "good PC". It certainly was "manipulative" and coercive to force all us kiddies to sit through some short workshops on the realities of the handicapped, but it was GOOD that they did. I have no problem with this, nor do I have any problem with kids today being told them should respect and treat the handicapped with compassion and tolerance. [WillBlake] I believe in the power of man and society to evolve into a more tolerant place by virtue of man being good. Our society is infantile at best, but can grow. I believe that forcing a point of view on such a society by groups who claim to have the answer is an artificial means for achieving harmony. [Arlo] Let's take affirmative action for a moment. Before this was put in place, since the beginning of this country a black man could work hard his whole life, do all he could to earn respect, and yet still be denied opportunities given to less qualified whites. I don't see any signs that that would have changed on its own. Do you? So here you seem to be saying that those blacks should've just toughed it out, and waited, and waited, for how many generations, until some future point when suddenly there would no longer be racism. What if that took eight generations, what if it never occured? Do we just say "oh well, too bad, sucks to be you"? [WillBlake] The interfacing of man to man (or woman) is much more important than creating rules. [Arlo] And before "PC" (as a term), how exactly was "interfacing" helping the blacks, or the mentally-handicapped earn respect? That child in my tenth grade year "interfaced", really tried to make friends and fit in, and yet he was verbally assaulted and ridiculed constantly, his life made miserable by people shouting "retard" and other slurs at him all the time. He "interfaced", all right, and ended up after a short time feeling sub-human, hurt, and I just can't imagine what else. [Will Blake] The fact that you have concerns suggests that you believe that a select few should be leading the masses. [Arlo] Don't understand this at all, seems like political rhetoric to me. [WillBlake] What makes me think this is your need to know if I am "right wing" or "left wing". This is typical of one who needs a rule book (or equation) to determine if my views are valid or not... Again, this seems to me typical of one who follows a PC equation. [Arlo] Not to point out the obvious, but you've pretty much declared me "left wing" and have use the "right-wing" rule book to pretty much condemn my position. As such, you too seem to follow a "PC equation", one that is predominantly written by the "right". You injected comments about "Obama being my king" shows this. [WillBlake] Once you classify me, it doesn't matter what I say. [Arlo] Haven't you classified me as "leftist"? [WillBlake] What is obscene is that you have no problem with that, and in fact support it using examples of social improvement to say that it therefore must all be good. [Arlo] No here's that horrible rhetoric again. I say that "it therefore must all be good"? From day one I've said that some examples of PC I find good, some I find evil and some I find comical. What is the purpose of your distortion here? [WillBlake] What left a bad taste in my mouth is that you would use this example simply for argumentative purposes. [Arlo] I am not using it "simply for argumentative purposes". I am using it because it stands as an example of "PC Good", as well as being one I have personal experiences with. If you condemn "PC" as a whole, then you by definition condemn the "forced sensitivity training" that children get about treating the mentally-handicapped with respect and tolerance. And if you do this, you condone the use of the term "retard", and the advice you leave the mentally-handicapped with is "buck it up, stop whining, and earn your respect". So everytime you, or Platt, just summarily rage against "PC" I step in to remind everyone that this includes "retards". It may annoy you to hear that, but it does. [WillBlake] Again, you are supporting the totality of PC by using some examples of where it perhaps (in your view) has been successful. [Arlo] See, again, distortive rhetoric. I never, not once, supported "the totality of PC". In fact I've said the opposite all along. And yet here it is twice you make this charge. Either you don't read my posts at all, or you have some purpose here in using such distortions. And again, this comes right out of the "right wing" playbook. [WillBlake] It is similar to your use of extreme examples to negate that PC can have negative consequences. [Arlo] Okay, again, "retards" is an "extreme example" only because of the "positive consequences" of that particular use of PC. Believe me, if this was the '70s, that would NOT be an "extreme example". [WillBlake] My advice is the same for the Christians. I thought you were one, with all the talk about helping one's brother. My mistake. [Arlo] You, sir, need to read on Buddhism. [WillBlake] OK, I do not believe that genitals should play a part in who is recommended to the supreme court. [Arlo] But they historically HAVE. And you did not answer the question, if women make up more than half of our population, why have they been (and continue to be) underrepresented on the Court? [WillBlake] Such extreme views can create a lot of fear and hatred towards the "right". Do you think that perhaps it is misplaced? [Arlo] I'm rereading what I had written in that paragraph that you think is an "extreme view". Here is what I said. [Arlo had said] Actually, I think everyone is confused, and that is the problem. Not just whites. Not just blacks. Everyone. And at the heart of this is a manipulation of xenophobia that fuels people's egos through claims of "superiority". Politicos manipulate this xenophobia rather than address it. Blacks exploit white-fear, whites exploit black-fear, and on and on. The "left" overreaches with "affirmative action" to solidify power from xenophobic minorities, the "right" condemns it entirely to solidify power from xenophobic whites. [Arlo] What is the "extreme view" in that that you feel is "fear and hatred towards the right"? And, might I add, what about all the fear and hatred towards the "left"? What erroneously fuels that? [WillBlake] Personally, I see no joy in being completely polarized in my views (except maybe in the abdominal current use of PC) [Arlo] Well I don't feel completely polarized, despite attempt to characterize me as such. But again, here you make again an empty statement about "PC". Tell me, do you NOT feel that sensitivity training for kids in dealing with the mentally-handicapped is PC? Why not? Would the same sensitivity training about tolerating Hispanics be PC? What's the difference? [WillBlake] OK, I stand educated. I grew up in totalitarian regimes in South America. This may explain some of my distaste with the current government trying to corner the banking system, the automobile market, the health system. [Arlo] Context always matters. And while I share concerns about the government's reaching, the examples you mention aren't about "PC" are they? [WillBlake] I have a problem with the government telling me how I should act, they are a bunch of petty thieves. [Arlo] Okay, WillBlake, here is where I have to say that, like with "PC", being against the "government" is an empty stance. "Government" are not "petty thieves", the people WE elected to represent us in government are "petty thieves". Government is WE THE PEOPLE, and if our government consists of corrupt politicians, it is because WE PUT THEM THERE. Every single one. Government is not the problem, we are. [WillBlake] True PC should be left to parents, and not put in the governments' hands. [Arlo] And when it was, I saw a mentally-handicapped child driven away from school, his parents forced to move, and no one did anything. [WillBlake] The government is the epitome of bad PC. [Arlo] I don't even know what that means, but it sounds eerily like a right-wing slogan, to be sure. 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