Arlo, Perhaps you are incorrect in thinking that the nature of our society is controlled by the intervention of a select few.
Cheers, Willblake2 On May 8, 2009, at 6:40:07 AM, "ARLO J BENSINGER JR" <[email protected]> wrote: [Sharath] I think with every generation there has been more & more acceptance of minorities into the main stream and I don't think affirmative action has anything to do with it... [Arlo] Well I'm looking back at the pre-1960's (the decade of origin for "PC", regarding human rights, equality, etc) and I don't see much evidence (if any) that blacks were gaining acceptance. What evidence would you point to? This also gets back to my point to WillBlake, what if (hypothetical) such "acceptance" would take a half dozen generations or more? Is the best we can do in the interim is to say to blacks "well, it sucks to be you, but buck up, stop whining, and deal with it"? But again what I'd like to know is what measures you'd suggest we could look at to show that before certain "PC" measures things were improving. In 1955 blacks were still forced to sit at the back of buses. Rosa Parks was arrested and this led to legal challenges were made to the Montgomery Bus company where a COURT forced the abolition of the segregationist policy and allowed blacks equal treatment in selecting seats. Without this court order what evidence do you point to suggest that blacks were gaining acceptance? Should they have stayed at the back of the bus longer, another generation, two, six, until such a time as they were "accepted" naturally? In my opinion, I see no evidence historically that without intervention of some sort, the situation for blacks would have improved much, if at all. [Sharath] I agree historically merit was never the standard and I don't think it will ever be. I mean most human decisions are based on emotions and people are biased. [Arlo] Likely. As I said, I wish "merit" was truly the only measure here. There have been recent reports that show that on job applications, if everything else is identical, respondants with minority-sounding names never are called for interviews, while the same application merits submitted by someone with a white-sounding name are significantly more likely to produce an interview. In my own experience, a few years back someone I knew was involved peripherally in a home sale, the house had sat unmoved on the market for months, when a single black woman with a child (employed and all that good stuff) got approved for a loan on the house the seller discovered the buyer was black and pulled the house off the market. The house sat for another year unsold. I don't know how many other times that happened to her, but it doesn't go far in suggesting acceptance. [Sharath] I don't know whether you have lived in a foreign culture but believe me I've lived in so many different parts of the world..I don't think people are all that open to accepting outsiders. [Arlo] I have, and I certainly support the openness and acceptance of diversity in this country. Although your experience with that openness will vary from locale to locale. I don't know how this jives with the reality that hate groups are seeing large rises in their ranks since Obama was elected, which suggests a very strong undercurrent of hostility towards "outsiders". But, all in all, yes, I think diversity efforts in our country have made it an overall very accepting place. [Sharath] I believe one reason why the US is open and curious in absorbing new ideas from different cultures is due to the fact that it is relatively a new nation and like the famous buddhist saying "To learn something you need to empty your cup" has an empty cup. [Arlo] And I think if you look back historically, this "openness" you perceive as a newcomer exists really only in force since the 1960s. Prior to that time, I think your experience as a foreigner traveling around America would have been different. You too, back then, would have had to sit at the back of buses and drink from non-white water fountains. So again, I think you're seeing the results of the 60s but not attributing them the experiences you are having. [Sharath] I guess the real division in any society is rich vs poor. [Arlo] Agree, if you add "modern" (in any modern society). [Sharath] I believe education is the key and I agree it's more complex than this. [Arlo] Agree. [Sharath] Of course I agree there was some struggle and everything is cool now :). [Arlo] Well I don't know about cool, but its certainly better. :-) [Sharath] You guys elected a black man to the highest office. [Arlo] Which sent hate group membership into record levels in recent decades. And this followed a string of vicious PC attacks that attempted to paint Obama as a "muslim", and used his middle name to insinuate connections to terrorism and keep his "non-whiteness" in the foreground of xenophobic minds. [Sharath] However everywhere I go, the one thing that amuses me is how the black man is always waiting to sense a hint of discrimination in every interaction with the white man..while, the white man is almost always overly careful.. [Arlo] Well, its true. This is because of the exploitation of xenophobia by political ideologues. As I said to WillBlake, blacks exploit fear of whites to consolidate power from xenophobic blacks, whites exploit fear of blacks to consolidate power from xenophobic whits. Both black and white leaders are to blame for this, it's all about power, about manipulating fear among the xenophobes to secure and consolidate power. [Sharath] even though *most of the current yougn generation don't really care what the other person looks like and just want to live their lives. [Arlo] I hope you're right. [Sharath] I'm sorry my english is only so good. [Arlo] I wouldn't have noticed English was not your L1 if you had not pointed it out. 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