hello, > [gav] > > look i think we all know by now that some are on this list > to share and > > learn, and some are here to argue; this list is, for > them, the chance to > > argue with pirsig. > > > > but this list is not about arguing with pirsig; it is > not about arguing > > with anyone.
john: > But gav, how are you gonna stop philosophers from > arguing? It's what we do. > What is Philosophy without argument? gav: i disagree. philosophy is not about argument...at least not from an moq viewpoint. good philosophy is never tendentious, sententious or parochial, it resonates deeply. arguing reminds me of the barking of immature dogs john: > Let's just please stick to the rules. Philosophical > argument is not two > static sides lobbing bombs at the other from > well-entrenched positions > trying to win. The goal of a finite game is to win, > the goal of an infinite > game is to keep the play going. gav: the only rule we need is the rule of thumb - our thumb. is what we write true to ourselves - true to experience > > this list is for those who get pirsig; a number that i am > gladdened to see > > is rising - though we still desperately need more > female voices. > > john: Amen brother! But I would think this list would also > be useful for those > who don't quite get Pirsig but would like to. gav: of course! but i am tired of those who seem sure that they know better, without understanding pirsig and his work. it is a dead end. if you are here to learn - excellent....you will find great help here, as i have over the years. if you are here to win, to criticise, to inflate your ego at ultimately only your own expense....this infects the atmosphere here; this disrespect and inelegance. if you are here for genuine reasons then remain true to that. bear in mind that there are several on this list (ant, dave, dan, me, platt and others) who have been here for a long time and have traversed the whole topography of pirsig's metaphysics, and in doing so have charted where the moq sits in relation the the wider geography of western and eastern philosophy. > > i am suggesting that we cease to interact when we know the > response > > beforehand...when we know what reply we will get, when > we know exactly where > > the discussion will go because we have been there so > often before. very > > static. > > > > this is in the interest of all; the try and try again > method is obviously > > not working and is enervating....it saps the energies > that should be used > > now to open new ground, not endlessly rehash. > > > > john: Well said. Argument should be more than just shouting > louder to make your > point heard. > > > > > i do think this whole process has been valuable though > - the endless reruns > > have lead to a crystallization and encapsulation of > subtle and complex > > ideas. this is of benefit to all who are open. > > > > but we can leave that now - i think so anyway. > >john: > Some good 'ol reiteration of static latching would be > helpful. But it > doesn't seem we've gone very far in that direction. > Other than Marsha's > signature. gav: ant's textbook and thesis, lila's child, the papers at robertpirsig.org, moq.org...on top of pirsig's books and essays and letters. the static latching is there to avail yourself of. then the discussion can flow - be faithful to the dynamic. ....how many posts here are questions, genuine questions? how many are statements of position, of answers, of "this is what i think"....not very dynamic. > > i would like to move into new territory. i don't think we > can make our > > descriptions and explanations any more precise or > concise....but we can > > analogise endlessly, creatively..... > > > john: Well, I'm game. I have a point to make > about your "descriptions and > explanations" which I was going to make in a new thread, > but heck, may as > well introduce it here. The best time to > prune an apple tree is when > you've got the shears in your hand. > > The branch of Philosophy concerning first things, or > fundamental things is > "metaphysics". I think we get screwed with > the 4 levels when we put them > under this heading. The four levels are not > fundamental in the metaphysics > of Quality. They are an intellectual tool, a > philosophy of quality, that > can be analyzed for its usefulness and utility and ... > quality. That > difference seems crucial to me in analyzing schisms of the > past (not that > I've done THAT in any comprehensive way). gav: all metaphysics are an intellectual tool: no more than that. john: > Thus in my proposal, the truth that Quality is real is a > metaphysical > foundation and the four levels are a philosophical > outgrowth of the highest > quality - a Philosophy of Quality, if you will. With > understanding and > adoption of the underlying metaphysics, perhaps even a > Religion of Quality > might evolve someday. For as J Royce mentions, humans > have need of religion > and philosophy, each in their appropriate realms. gav: there is no ultimate difference between religion, science, philosophy, art. they seek to illumine the same mystery. they are different paths to the same goal. good philosophy incorporates everything of use, of salience. as with art, the realisation of religion, of authentic religion, is also the negation of it. (situationists) religion is a reconnection. ligare - to connect, like ligaments. this reconnection is genuinely needed; but the need is for a genuine connection, not a mediated one - we need the meal not the menu. this is religion as art, creative, personal, unique. there are no generic truths. when religion is genuine and universal it seeks to exist because it is not brought into relief by it's opposite - the absence of it. cheers gav > > > idealistically yours, > > John > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. 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