Ian: > Jeez - as I say, life's too short. Nick: What's up dude? Why are you saying that? I answered your questions and you came back said I brought up a trespasser when I didn't. I'm pointing out a simple fact of who brought it up. I'm not coming after you. You need to chill dude. You asked questions and I answered them. I mean what do you want to know. Why are you getting reactionary all of sudden? What's up?
Nick > > Ian: > >> Nick, the repelling trespassers was your example, not mine. > > > > Nick: > > I quote you from below: > > > > "The point is which better or worse patterns are > >> >> allowed to govern them - hit a physical trespasser over the head with > >> >> a physical club." > > > > You brought that up. > > > > Ian: > >> You are complicating - confounding - the picture much too fast. > >> Everything from property rights to rape, retribution and hanging all > >> in one para. > > > > Nick: > > Sorry. I'll slow down. My fault. :-) > > > > Ian: > >> The answer cannot be that three letters (NAP) is an intellectual > >> pattern therefore it's the answer to all those issues. Patterns (even > >> intellectual patterns) are not created equal. > > > > Nick: > > Oh but it is. It has been thoroughly put through the ringers in numerous, > > countless contrived situations. Numerous papers are written about it. > > Books > > discuss it. This is not a new concept and has been around for centuries. > > > > Ian: > >> The onus, remember. What is your version of NAP, how does it relate to > >> MoQ and what is better about it ? If your message is the revelation > >> that freedom is a good thing, then that is not new to anyone. The > >> devil is in the detail. > > > > Nick: > > Yes, the devil is in the detail. Freedom is a good thing. But > > what does liberty > > actually mean? It has a definition. It has had one for > > centuries. It is the > > absence of initiating physical coercion. It is a humanly applied > > understanding. > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > >> Ian > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:44 PM, blue-jay maple<[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Ian: > >> >> I still think the onus is on you to describe / explain / justify more > >> >> on NAP... I'm with Marsha there Nick. > >> > > >> > Nick: > >> > I'm willing. > >> > > >> > Ian: > >> >> One substantive MoQish point. > >> >> Yes obviously all physical actions (physical force & coercion) happen > >> >> in the physical layer. The point is which better or worse patterns are > >> >> allowed to govern them - hit a physical trespasser over the head with > >> >> a physical club. Most higher level patterns involve realization in > >> >> lower levels - thoughts in the brain, brain in the animal, animal made > >> >> of physical material. The patterns cross levels and have elements > >> >> (sub-patterns) in more than one level. Not all patterns are created > >> >> equal. > >> > > >> > Nick: > >> > In justice "intent" can't be realized by others. You could ask > >> > the person and you > >> > can infer a lot with scienctific tools to investigate a crime, > >> > let's say, but what was > >> > going on in the mind of the person can't be 100% substantiated. > >> > Cause the person > >> > could lie. > >> > Now in your example of a trespasser being hit over the head with > >> > a club. This > >> > is understood as inquiring into repercussions against the > >> > violator of property rights. I would need > >> > to know more context to understand if the property owner was > >> > justified in hitting > >> > the trespasser over the head with a club. Proportionality is an > >> > important consideration > >> > in what in law is called repercussion. So if the property owner > >> > went too far, then he > >> > or she could be brought under criminal charges as well. > >> > Repercussions, admittedly, > >> > are not as yet universally known. But proportionality is > >> > helpful. Yet let's take the > >> > case of a rapist. Does one rape back in proportionality to > >> > achieve repercussion? No, > >> > obviously not. There's a spectrum to this that is currently in > >> > debate. On the one hand > >> > there are those that discuss retribution so this may include > >> > hanging the criminal. I find > >> > that to be too much. I lean towards the other side that includes > >> > restitution and ostracation > >> > if necessary. Also this goes as far as ridding prisons quite > >> > possible in both cases, but > >> > it's still a debatable issue. > >> > > >> > Ian: > >> >> The higher patterns have "rights" over the lower ones - which limit > >> >> their freedoms. > >> >> We can debate the vagueries of exactly which kinds of patterns we are > >> >> actually talking about in any given case, but the principle is MoQ > >> >> 101. > >> > > >> > Nick: > >> > Well, the NAP is an intellectual pattern. It is an intellectual > >> > principle. Is that > >> > what you want to know? So are natural rights. They are > >> > intellectual abstractions > >> > that have been reasoned to be universally applicable. Pirsig > >> > brought these up > >> > in Lila I believe. Freedom of speech, innocent until proven > >> guilty, etc... > >> > > >> > Nick > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > >> > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > >> > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > >> > > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> > Archives: > >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >> > > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! 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