> [Nick previously] > Show me how the NAP is twisted logic. > [Arlo] > What's twisted is your definition of "coercion". You make it sound, > well not even make it sound, you say it outright, that anyone who > doesn't buy your absurd definition of "coercion" is a murderer and > a thief.
Arlo. How can you say that initiating physical coercion is not murder and thief? Is there no justice here in this forum? Let's leave the government out of this discussion. I know that's a hot potato, and we need not go there, but murder? Come on? That's a whole other topic. Arlo: > If you had the smallest ability to perceive this, you'd > see that everyone who has responded to you has been critical of > your ridiculous take on "evil guvmint coercion assailing liberty > people like you". Nick: Well, let's leave the government out of the discussion then. It's true you are physically coerced to pay taxes. You can like to pay taxes, but if you don't you will be physically coerced. That is unquestioned. But we need not discuss the government part anymore. It's hard for people to bring that up. I understand. There's many other ways to focus on this. Arlo: > You take criticism of your warped view on > coercion to paint others as horrific little tyrants and criminals. > You are not seeking dialogue, you are seeking aggrandizement. Oh > you won't admit it, you won't say this isn't about Glorious Liberty > Lovin' Nick the Messiah, but it is. We are all just sooo stupid, we > just don't see the way it really is, like you do, we are all evil > and corrupt and murderous and thieving, but not YOU, oh boy no! Nick: Well are you for initiating physical coercion or not? If not, then I think we have some space here. What really happened in this forum is most everybody jumped the gun and didn't know sh-t of what they were talking about. Now you're faced with real reason. So let's dialogue. Arlo: > Nick is for Liberty. Nick is for Freedom. All you need is a blue > suit and a red cape. "Here he comes to save the day!" (Yeah yeah, > that's Mighty Mouse, not Superman, I know) So before you and Platt > start giving each other the ol' righteous reach around, at least > try to step out of our haze for long enough to see that this is NOT > about this NAP stuff, it is about your warped version of > "coercion". There are other "non-aggression" philosophies out > there, can you say "Buddhism"? Nick: Arlo, you don't read all the posts. I already said Buddhist recognize the NAP. Catch up to speed will ya. Initiating physical coercion and understanding what that means doesn't much mind stimulate, I mean really? Arlo: > and I admit to a certain empathy > with anarcho-communism, but I can see the "evil" in the world that > comes from either anarchy (law of the jungle) or totalitarianism. Nick: Anarchy with Natural Law is completely about Law. And I think anarch-communism is faulty, but that's a whole other issue (for one it needs a free market to actually central plan upon). It is the embodiment of Justice. So don't twist that government lie. I'm all for the State to exist in the free market (cops, military, teachers, courts, etc...). Just rid the government that coerces the State arbritarily and bring reason. The Church of Reason can be anywhere you don't need to have the government to reason properly. Arlo: > We have civil governance for a reason, and it is Good. It is > symbiotic. Nick: No it's not. So you can try to discuss something else other than your opinion of what is good. But being forced to do something I would do freely is wrong. I don't need the "Governor of Montana" (from ZMM) dictating what reason can do. Arlo: > Yes, at times it gets out of balance in one direction or > the other, we swing in a pendulum from miner's bodies being dropped > off on their shanty's porch with an eviction notice pinned to the > shirt to the state taking control of car companies. And we are > still oscillating. We'll swing "right" again, and then "left" once > more. And there is much to condemn and criticize about our > government, but there is also much to praise and be thankful for, > something I am reminded me every time I ride my Harley on public > roads north into the "Pennsylvania Wilds". > Do you think that taxation to fund, say, the military is immorally > coercive? Nick: It is coerced from us, when I would gladly volunteer to pay. So whether I like or not, does not matter. My responsiblities are given up more and more by a government "nanny" that thinks it has to force people to do what is good. People do what is good on their own. That's the whole telos of Quality. "Follow dynamic quality" Quality is good. Etc., etc. Arlo: > If not, why is it okay for you to steal my tax dollars to > pay for wars that I don't agree with? Nick: War is wrong. Initiating physical coercion (pre-emptive wars) are dead wrong. Arlo you have a very hard time thinking outside the left-right political spectrum. I'm neither. Never have been. I follow liberty not these silly arbritary parties gambling morality as Thoreau said, voting for I believe is right, but not actually doing what is right. We don't need to continue to discuss the government. I understand that's too touch an issue for you. Arlo: > Shouldn't we have an all > volunteer army, supported by private funding and charity? Or a > private army, mercenaries, who are paid for only be those who wish > to hire them? Or are we saying there should be an abolition of a > "military" altogether, and people should be responsible for > defending their own land with their own gun? Nick: I don't know. The world will decide for our own safety and with liberty as the focus I think we will do what's best freely, don't need somebody to force their arbitriary opinions on us. Arlo: > What would be a "free > market" alternative to a coercively-supported immoral tax-based > military? What about your "courts", how would they be funded? > Charity and bake sales? Private donations? Can you see no problem > with private funding for civil courts? What about in poor areas > that can't afford a court? Should wealth form a basis for civil > legalities in any given area? Nick: People pay taxes. People will pay for these things willingly. Heck most people haven't pushed it far enough to physically know what it's like to not pay taxes and be coerced. If people do it now on their own, then they will keep doing it on their own. They don't need a government to force it out of them. If they choose not too, then they choose not too. But I know the telos is Quality. Most people want what is good. Arlo: > In any event, Nick, I don't see any real hope to any productive > dialogue here. Nick: We can have dialogue. We don't need to bring up the government. I will point out where you veer from natural rights though. And by dialogue, when people say this they usually mean, I HAVE TO DO WHAT ARLO THINKS. Arlo: All you're doing is running in absurd rhetorical > circles, saying the same nightmare phrases over and over, accusing > anyone who disagrees with you of being a murderer and a thief, > moaning about how stupid we are all (with the implied converse that > YOU are so wise!) and then acting like no one is respond to you > intellectually. Nick: Nobody hardly has. Ron and John and Marsha only. You knee-jerked the whole time. Krimel and dmb and Andre did big time. If you don't understand that if you are against peace and you advocate murder that that is wrong, then there is no hope for you. Arlo: Well, they all tried. And it got them nothing. If > it makes you feel better to play the whole "assailed messiah" > routine, knock yourself out. Nick: You have lots to learn Arlo. I'll teach you. Nick -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! 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