Ron,
I think we're much closer to agreement about free speech than we are
apart. We agree it does not include the right to incite a riot by yelling fire
in a crowded theater or incite a mob to lynch a suspected horse thief or
rapist. My position is simply that hate speech laws are open to wide
interpretation as to what constitutes a "threat to cause physical harm."
Physical acts can be determined by a preponderance of evidence, but
thoughts that led to the act are highly speculative. That's why when
there is any possible doubt I default to free speech. So I would not shout
down and otherwise prevent a Holocaust denier from speaking on
campus, nor would I attempt to ostracize or otherwise punish someone
who defended fundamentalist Christianity, the superiority of Western
civilization or the benefits of taking mind-altering drugs. Coercive
muzzling of free speech encourages sanctioning of government power
to regulate every aspect of our lives from what jokes we are allowed to
tell to how we should phrase invitations to sex. Once liberty is lost it is
almost impossible to get back, and perhaps our most precious liberty is
to speak openly without fear of reprisal.
In any case, thanks for the discussion. It helped me clarify my views.
Platt
On 11 Jun 2009 at 11:28, X Acto wrote:
> Ron:
> PC, as far as I know, is a social standard for politeness in public nothing
> more.
> Hate speech in public places is alive and well, . As far as I
> know Platt all you need is a permit provided one is granted, otherwise
> you'll probably get fined for loitering and disturbing the peace if you don't
> move along and take it someplace else if asked.
>
> Platt:
> I can think of many exceptions to the need to obtain a permit, like spewing
> hate
> from the pulpit, on the internet, and from the studios of MSNBC.
>
> Ron:
> I agree
>
> Ron:
> Same goes for School or work, if it bothers others and creates a disturbance
> and if you refuse to stop, then yes you should be asked to leave.
>
> Platt:
> "Asked to leave" is politically correct language for "fired." Be that as it
> may, the
> problem is determining what constitutes "bothering" and "disturbance." I'm
> bothered
> and distrubed every day by liberals. :-)
>
> Ron:
> Hate speech is a term for speech intended to offendor intimidate a person or
> group of people
> by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or inciting
> others to threaten such harm.
>
> It boils down to intent Platt. If you intend to intimidate or threaten a
> person or group
> or incite others to do so, you should be fined and jailed.
>
> Platt:
> I presume that means that the Reverand Jermiah Wright should be in jail.
>
> Ron:
> I personally do not care for the guy either, and if he made threats, perhaps
> he should be.
>
> Ron:
> sorry to ruin your day but a lynch mob is not an extention of free speech.
>
> Platt:
> Neither is imprisoning two women reporters to 10 years hard labor.
>
> Ron:
> I agree N.Korea is trying to force the U.S. into a situation, has been for
> years.
>
> Ron:
> Terrorists use hate speech don't they? to terrorize others?
> Is it your opinion that this is their right to free speech?
>
> Platt:
> Sure. The networks show vidoes from Bin Laden. Would you censor them?
>
> Ron:
> Bin Laden is on the top of the hit list as far as I know. I think were
> getting into a different
> ball game with the censorship of reporting of said hate speech. It kinda gets
> turned
> in on itself like the monty python skit in the life of brian when they were
> stoning
> that guy for speaking the name of jehova.
>
> priceless stuff
>
> but I understand your concern over the dangers of censorship.
>
>
>
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