On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, david buchanan <[email protected]>wrote:
John said: Good as a structural pattern of Reality which imposes itself > upon the mind of the discerner so that the empirical deductions which arise > in experience can be judged and chosen. Pronouncing it as a mystical > occurrence is a cop out when so much intellect has been expended, > explaining so much mystery already. > > > dmb says:I'm really not sure what you're saying here. In the MOQ, there is > always a discrepancy between concepts and reality. Ok then, let's just take that for starters. It illustrates perfectly "what I'm saying here". It illustrates it from the wrong viewpoint, but that's often the best starting place - like proving Quality is real by arguing what would be if it wasn't. ALWAYS a discrepancy between concepts and reality? ALWAYS??? How do you know this? What possible proof could you offer to make such a statement? I mean, if we all, every person on the planet, just spent all our time conceptualizing every waking moment (in fact, I guess we do) then wouldn't the bare fact of probability offer the possibility that every once in a while, somebody got it right? If so, it would be very difficult to prove, but obversely, it is also impossible to prove contrary. How would you know? And if we're talking about concepts, well sometimes the reality I'm conceptualising IS a concept. I'm talking about an emotional state or a thought pattern which, since I'm referring to my own creation, I oughta be the best judge on whether the concept of my reality concept is real enough. My concept of reality contains no discrepancy between concept and reality when the reality I conceptualize is a concept I create. Thus the statement that "there is always a discrepancy" seems to be only an attempt to throw us into the arena of relativism where the "experts" rule. It is not a provable or disprovable truth. Now the statement I made about the Good, is that we can trust it. We don't have to doubt every single thought or concept we have, we can judge our concepts and thoughts based upon a real Quality which exists at the macro and the microcosmic levels. The basic moral structure of the universe is also the basic moral structure of ourselves and all it takes to bridge this "discrepancy gap" is a little faith in the cosmos which defines and creates us. We don't need mysticism to experience the real meaning of existence; we can get there by opening our eyes and hearts. > Here, the primary reality is not structured or patterned. Structures and > patterns are derived from the undifferentiated, unpatterned, unstructured > flux of experience. "The Good was not a FORM of reality. It was reality itself, ever changing, > ultimately unknowable in any kind of fixed, rigid way". (near the end of > chapter 29 of ZAMM) And ultimately knowable in an open-ended and dynamic way. So why not try that way? > Because Quality is the generator of the mythos. That's it. That's what he > meant when he said, "Quality is the continuing stimulus which causes us to > create the world in which we live. And a damn fine job, I say. > Religion isn't invented by man. Men are invented by religion. Hey, great line. John -- ------------ Self is simply Choice, so choose good ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
