John, Yes, It borders on genius in regard to artful form without losing as Ian stated, it's walking the walk. From the begining In Lila, Pirsig states that to write about a metaphysics is a degenerate act but he was doing it anyway, for the love of wisdom.
-Ron ________________________________ From: John Carl <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:08:23 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig and Socratic method (a question for Ant) Well a true koan is dialogue between a master and a student in a basically one-on-one format. How do you do that in a book? I imagine one way would be to imagine the responses of the student - the student in SOM would need to be led through his half of the dialogue and it would look something like Ian's complaint: like the author "tried to explain his thesis in more conventional terms of evidence, logic and argument within the narration & dialogues." Thus taking both halves of the dialogue. Thus playing both parts of the koanic structure. Does that answer your criticism of Lila, Ian? I liked that post about the oral tradition vs. the written. That was very interesting and somewhat along the lines of Ellul's explanation of the differing ways we get information, ears vs. eyes, and how that affects our processing. What you seem to point out Ron, is that Pirsig accomplished the oral technique of a koan using a literary device. Am I following you correctly? Interesting indeed. John On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:08 AM, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > Ian: > > It's not just idle curiosity ... one of my criticisms of Lila has been that > he didn't use this approach - take his own medicine - but rather tried to > explain his thesis in more conventional terms of evidence, logic and > argument within the narration & dialogs. > > > Ron: > I thought so too Ian, I saw a closer resemblance with Socrates method of > structure used in Phaedrus, evident in the Phaedrus/Lila dialogs > escpecially. > switching view points dialectically but keeping the character of Phaedrus > central, the narrorator leading the reader through the dialogs creating > context and continuity through them concluding Orphically nearing the end > of the heros journey he loses Lila which turns out was more a reflection an > image > of himself > than a reality. the game of Lila. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ian Glendinning <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:23:35 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig and Socratic method (a question for Ant) > > Hi Ant, interesting. > > You said "The primary literary device that Pirsig intentionally used for > both ZMM and LILA was the Zen koan" > > I'd like to think that was true, but I don't really see that it necessarily > is ? > > I'm not disagreeing that the Narrator and Phaedrus do use koans, and > clearly > the practice of koans are the topic of significant parts of the text and > dialogues, but I don't see that the Author really uses any koan-like > structure to the stories themselves. Most of the narrative is conventional > "dialogue" of the Narrator and/or Phaedrus either with themselves or with > the other characters and the reader. The examples you give seem to be where > the Buddhist koan process is being described ... ie "mentioned" rather than > "used" ... with the exception of the infamous "Does Lila have Quality?" and > "And what is good, Phaedrus?" - koans used within the books. Can you point > to the structure of the books themselves having koan-like qualities too ? > > Regards > Ian > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Ant McWatt <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Ron, > > > > The primary literary device that Pirsig intentionally used for both ZMM > and > > LILA was the Zen koan or puzzle rather than the Socratic method (of > question > > and answers). > > > > However, judging from the relevant section from my PhD pasted below, you > > can certainly see a correlation in Dynamic Quality and static quality to > > Anaximander's ideas about the apeiron (unlimited) and the peiron > (limited). > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Anthony > > > > > > www.robertpirsig.org > > > > > > > > As a development of Zen Buddhism, it’s critical to realise that the MOQ > can > > be perceived as reflecting the circle of enlightenment found in Buddhist > > thought where an adherent (such as a young monk) begins at ‘the world of > > form’ (typically perceived at this juncture dualistically, as in SOM) and > > proceeds to an understanding of ‘formlessness’ (termed ‘Dynamic Quality’ > by > > Pirsig) to obtain 180 degrees enlightenment. The student then returns > with > > this new knowledge into ‘the world of form’ to achieve full (or 360 > degrees) > > enlightenment or Buddhahood (in which Dynamic Quality is perceived via > the > > static quality patterns). > > > > “In Buddhism, the world can be described in terms of ‘The First > Principle’, > > sometimes called ‘Formlessness’ or ‘nothingness’ or ‘freedom’ which > > parallels the treatment of Quality in ZMM. The world can also be > described > > in terms of ‘The Second Principle’ of ‘Form’ or ‘order’ which parallels > the > > treatment of quality in LILA. In Buddhism, form and formlessness, > freedom > > and order, co-exist.” (Pirsig 1999a) > > > > In other words, one should not be seeking to arrive at just recognising > > Dynamic Quality but to a more profound understanding: ‘The teaching of > > emptiness is actually an affirmation of the dynamic interconnectedness of > > all things.’ (Burton, 2001, p.178) The treatment of Quality through ZMM > > (its formlessness) and LILA (its forms) can, when taken together, be read > as > > reflecting the circle of enlightenment; both texts are constructed as > > Western versions of a Zen koan (literally puzzling story or question) > in > > order to assist a more Western-orientated mind achieve enlightenment. > > > > “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book in philosophy. ‘Does > Lila > > have Quality?’ is its central question. It was intended to parallel the > > ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means ‘public cases,’) and in > > particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does a dog have a Buddha > nature?’.” > > (Pirsig 2002d) > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:49:44 -0700 > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [MD] Pirsig and Socratic method (a question for Ant) > > > > > > Dr Mcwatt, > > > A question has emerged (for myself) in regard to the literary device > Mr. > > Pirsig > > > chose (if any) to illuminate his thoughts about quality to the reader. > > > It seems to me that he uses Socratic method and Maieutics. > > > If this is the case, and Mr. Pirsig did intentionally use this method, > > > It would change how his works are perceived ( for my own > interpretation) > > > and others I would imagine. > > > > > > The linkage with these schools of though to Orphism and Pythagoreanism > > > as it relates to "Anaximander's ideas about the apeiron and > > > the peiron, the unlimited and limited" are uncanny. > > > > > > Thank you for your time > > > -Ron > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get the best of MSN on your mobile > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- ------------ Self is Choice, so choose good ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
