Marsha, Right. But Beauty, like Quality, transcends both culture and the individual.
Platt On 25 Jun 2009 at 12:11, MarshaV wrote: > > Platt, > > The culture is a collection of individuals. If enough individuals > change (head, heart & hands), than so will the culture. > > > Marsha > > > > > At 11:44 AM 6/25/2009, you wrote: > >Hi Marsha, > > > >Because the individual working on her motorcycle is influenced by her > >culture. If the culture supports beauty, her work is more likely to be > >beautiful. But, Pirsig is right. Changes in the cultural begin with an > >individual, and someone has to be first. > > > >Platt > > > > > >On 25 Jun 2009 at 10:16, MarshaV wrote: > > > > > Greetings Platt, > > > > > > Why is this concern, making beauty a cultural matter, of interest, > > > when from ZMM: > > > > > > "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a > > > better place to live in, the way to do it is not with talk about > > > relationships of a political nature, which are inevitably dualistic, > > > full of subjects and objects and their relationship to one another; > > > or with programs full of things for other people to do. I think that > > > kind of approach starts it at the end and presumes the end is the > > > beginning. Programs of a political nature are important end products > > > of social quality that can be effective only if the underlying > > > structure of social values is right. The social values are right only > > > if the individual values are right. The place to improve the world is > > > first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward > > > from there. Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of > > > mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think > > > that what I have to say has more lasting value." > > > (ZMM,Chapter 25) > > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > At 08:46 AM 6/25/2009, you wrote: > > > >All: > > > > > > > >In Chapter 22 of Lila, Pirsig laments the lack of quality in modern life: > > > > > > > >"In the time that Phaedrus grew up, intellect was dominant over > > > >society, but the results of the new social looseness weren't > > turning out as > > > >predicted. Something was wrong. The world was no doubt in better > > > >shape intellectually and technologically but despite that, somehow, the > > > >"quality" of it was not good. There was no way you could say why this > > > >quality was no good. You just felt it." > > > > > > > >An essay by Roger Scruton entitled "Beauty and Desecration" > > > >explains as well as anything I've read "why this quality was no good." > > > >The following excerpt suggests where to look for the answer: > > > > > > > >"But why is beauty a value? It is an ancient view that truth, goodness > > > >and beauty cannot, in the end, conflict. Maybe the degeneration of > > > >beauty into kitsch comes precisely from the postmodern loss of > > > >truthfulness, and with it the loss of moral direction. That is the > > > >message > > > >of such early modernists as Eliot, Barber and Stevens, and it is a > > > >message we need to listen to." > > > > > > > >Scruton traces the change in art from a goal of attaining beauty "as a > > > >way in which lasting moral and spiritual values acquire sensuous form" > > > >to art that aimed to "disturb, subvert, or transgress moral certainties." > > > > > > > >Scruton concludes, "We should take a lesson from this kind of > > > >(artistic) desecration: in attempting to show our human ideals are > > > >worthless, it shows itself to be worthless. And when something shows > > > >itself to be worthless, it is time to throw it way." > > > > > > > >Seems to me that is also a message from the MOQ. > > > > > > > >For Scruton's essay, please go to: > > > > > > > >http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_beauty.html > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Platt > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _____________ > > "He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has." > (Friedrich von Schiller) > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
