Hello Ron, Yes, my idea of beauty is the same as the author's of the essay I referred to, i.e., a universal, transcendental concept as in Truth, Goodness and Beauty. The question, "What is beautiful?" is the same as "What is Quality?"
Platt On 25 Jun 2009 at 9:24, X Acto wrote: > Hello Platt, > You use "beauty" in a rather general and vague way in this context, > the question raised is "what is beautiful?" if, what Marsha sees as > beautiful is in agreement with what her culture finds beautiful, then > it may be said that she builds beauty into her work. > > You speak as if you seem to have a definite idea of what beauty is > and that beauty is a universal truth. > > -Ron > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:44:49 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good. > > Hi Marsha, > > Because the individual working on her motorcycle is influenced by her > culture. If the culture supports beauty, her work is more likely to be > beautiful. But, Pirsig is right. Changes in the cultural begin with an > individual, and someone has to be first. > > Platt > > > On 25 Jun 2009 at 10:16, MarshaV wrote: > > > Greetings Platt, > > > > Why is this concern, making beauty a cultural matter, of interest, > > when from ZMM: > > > > "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a > > better place to live in, the way to do it is not with talk about > > relationships of a political nature, which are inevitably dualistic, > > full of subjects and objects and their relationship to one another; > > or with programs full of things for other people to do. I think that > > kind of approach starts it at the end and presumes the end is the > > beginning. Programs of a political nature are important end products > > of social quality that can be effective only if the underlying > > structure of social values is right. The social values are right only > > if the individual values are right. The place to improve the world is > > first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward > > from there. Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of > > mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think > > that what I have to say has more lasting value." > > (ZMM,Chapter 25) > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > At 08:46 AM 6/25/2009, you wrote: > > >All: > > > > > >In Chapter 22 of Lila, Pirsig laments the lack of quality in modern life: > > > > > >"In the time that Phaedrus grew up, intellect was dominant over > > >society, but the results of the new social looseness weren't turning out as > > >predicted. Something was wrong. The world was no doubt in better > > >shape intellectually and technologically but despite that, somehow, the > > >"quality" of it was not good. There was no way you could say why this > > >quality was no good. You just felt it." > > > > > >An essay by Roger Scruton entitled "Beauty and Desecration" > > >explains as well as anything I've read "why this quality was no good." > > >The following excerpt suggests where to look for the answer: > > > > > >"But why is beauty a value? It is an ancient view that truth, goodness > > >and beauty cannot, in the end, conflict. Maybe the degeneration of > > >beauty into kitsch comes precisely from the postmodern loss of > > >truthfulness, and with it the loss of moral direction. That is the message > > >of such early modernists as Eliot, Barber and Stevens, and it is a > > >message we need to listen to." > > > > > >Scruton traces the change in art from a goal of attaining beauty "as a > > >way in which lasting moral and spiritual values acquire sensuous form" > > >to art that aimed to "disturb, subvert, or transgress moral certainties." > > > > > >Scruton concludes, "We should take a lesson from this kind of > > >(artistic) desecration: in attempting to show our human ideals are > > >worthless, it shows itself to be worthless. And when something shows > > >itself to be worthless, it is time to throw it way." > > > > > >Seems to me that is also a message from the MOQ. > > > > > >For Scruton's essay, please go to: > > > > > >http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_beauty.html > > > > > >Regards, > > >Platt > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
