Platt, Let me be more precise, you seem to have a conception of what Quality is, enough so that you seem to think your idea of it is the correct idea of it. The author associates beauty with truth and truth with a correspondence with what "is". He sounds terribly objective in his views of the standard of beauty, that the form of beauty is fixed and absolute and eternal.
I think Pirsig disagrees -Ron ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:46:16 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good. Hello Ron, Yes, my idea of beauty is the same as the author's of the essay I referred to, i.e., a universal, transcendental concept as in Truth, Goodness and Beauty. The question, "What is beautiful?" is the same as "What is Quality?" Platt On 25 Jun 2009 at 9:24, X Acto wrote: > Hello Platt, > You use "beauty" in a rather general and vague way in this context, > the question raised is "what is beautiful?" if, what Marsha sees as > beautiful is in agreement with what her culture finds beautiful, then > it may be said that she builds beauty into her work. > > You speak as if you seem to have a definite idea of what beauty is > and that beauty is a universal truth. > > -Ron > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:44:49 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good. > > Hi Marsha, > > Because the individual working on her motorcycle is influenced by her > culture. If the culture supports beauty, her work is more likely to be > beautiful. But, Pirsig is right. Changes in the cultural begin with an > individual, and someone has to be first. > > Platt > > > On 25 Jun 2009 at 10:16, MarshaV wrote: > > > Greetings Platt, > > > > Why is this concern, making beauty a cultural matter, of interest, > > when from ZMM: > > > > "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a > > better place to live in, the way to do it is not with talk about > > relationships of a political nature, which are inevitably dualistic, > > full of subjects and objects and their relationship to one another; > > or with programs full of things for other people to do. I think that > > kind of approach starts it at the end and presumes the end is the > > beginning. Programs of a political nature are important end products > > of social quality that can be effective only if the underlying > > structure of social values is right. The social values are right only > > if the individual values are right. The place to improve the world is > > first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward > > from there. Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of > > mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think > > that what I have to say has more lasting value." > > (ZMM,Chapter 25) > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > At 08:46 AM 6/25/2009, you wrote: > > >All: > > > > > >In Chapter 22 of Lila, Pirsig laments the lack of quality in modern life: > > > > > >"In the time that Phaedrus grew up, intellect was dominant over > > >society, but the results of the new social looseness weren't turning out as > > >predicted. Something was wrong. The world was no doubt in better > > >shape intellectually and technologically but despite that, somehow, the > > >"quality" of it was not good. There was no way you could say why this > > >quality was no good. You just felt it." > > > > > >An essay by Roger Scruton entitled "Beauty and Desecration" > > >explains as well as anything I've read "why this quality was no good." > > >The following excerpt suggests where to look for the answer: > > > > > >"But why is beauty a value? It is an ancient view that truth, goodness > > >and beauty cannot, in the end, conflict. Maybe the degeneration of > > >beauty into kitsch comes precisely from the postmodern loss of > > >truthfulness, and with it the loss of moral direction. That is the message > > >of such early modernists as Eliot, Barber and Stevens, and it is a > > >message we need to listen to." > > > > > >Scruton traces the change in art from a goal of attaining beauty "as a > > >way in which lasting moral and spiritual values acquire sensuous form" > > >to art that aimed to "disturb, subvert, or transgress moral certainties." > > > > > >Scruton concludes, "We should take a lesson from this kind of > > >(artistic) desecration: in attempting to show our human ideals are > > >worthless, it shows itself to be worthless. And when something shows > > >itself to be worthless, it is time to throw it way." > > > > > >Seems to me that is also a message from the MOQ. > > > > > >For Scruton's essay, please go to: > > > > > >http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_beauty.html > > > > > >Regards, > > >Platt > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
