On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 11:35 AM, david buchanan <[email protected]>wrote:
dmb says: > I think we are talking about roughly the same thing and I think it's very > important too. We probably disagree about whether or not Hitler's taste in > art ought to be left aside, however. As I see it, his reaction to modern art > is quite telling. I am tempted to start a new thread, "Did Hitler Have Quality?" Usually, there is a particular constellation of attitudes and > sensibilities, a total package of tastes and preferences that all go > together. Art that soothes and promotes homely values, for example, is very > likely going to appeal to those who also promote family values generally. I read an interview a while back with some female comic artist of avant garde reputation. Her work was insightful but coming from a dark place of sexual and physical abuse. She was asked what comics most inspired her in her formative years. Her answer "Family Circus" shocked me because I've always despised that stoopid little panelized morality lesson for the very reasons you elucidate. But she explained that with her background of childhood chaos, the most soothing and comforting art for her was that which assured her of normal family values in the world. Of course, none of her art looked like that. Her art expressed her reality, but when one is mired in one's reality, one is looking for a way out, not a way in. Another illustration was in the Vonnegut novel, Bluebeard - synopsis for anyone unfamiliar, is about the life and friendships of a fictionally famous abstract expressionist - oh happy, happy Rabo Karabekian. His depressive outlook on life is healed by kitschy victorian paintings of little girls in swings, which he initially despises. The owner of the paintings explains that in the time the portraits were made, a large percentage of those pretty little girls were going to die in childbirth, of disease, etc and the painters/commissioners of the paintings knew this full well. This was more than glorifying pretty young girls in swings, it was a brave whistling in the graveyard of a harsh existence and with that realization comes a different and deeper appreciation. You can probably intuitively grasp how this same sensibility might also be > attracted to books about little red school houses, might tend to home-school > their kids, might tend to be church-goers and Republicans too. It's all of a > piece. methinks you are assuming and grouping too tritely. > Progressive art and progressive politics are a natural match in the same > way. Basically, Picasso, Einstein and William James overturned art, physics > and empiricism in the same year, 1910. This was just before WW I and the end > of the Victorian era. I mean, the shift in art is part of a larger, > evolutionary movement that effects all domains of culture, more or less > equally. It is in this sense that one can have a fascist's taste in art, a > reactionary's taste in art. I'm not saying that Norman Rockwell's idealized > illustrations of family life will lead to genocide. I'm not even saying > they're ugly. But they do fit the dictionary definition of kitsch. My > computer's dictionary says it is, "art considered to be in poor taste > because of excessive garishness or sentimentality, but sometimes appreciated > in an ironic or knowing way". Well that definitely coincides with Vonnegut's interpretation. His character's initial judgement of poor taste evolves as he comes to know more and appreciate the sad irony. > dmb says: > > Yea, if art is preachy and imposing we should just dismiss it as > propaganda. On the other hand the artist is always, in some sense, > presenting her vision of the world, presenting a picture of things as the > artist sees them. How could anyone do otherwise? You know, the sentimental > guy is gonna like sentimental art and if he's an artist his art will be > sentimental too. Well I think my two examples refute that idea somewhat. > Usually, anyway. There ya go. Qualifiers promote Quality. > I mean, there is a striking parallel between the "dark" artists and the > philosophers and other intellectuals in this period. Social criticism was > and is the name of the game in both domains. The whole idea is to question > traditional values. This attitude goes all the way back to the very birth of > intellect, all the way back to Socratic doubt. But at the beginning of the > 20th century these intellectual values really took off and began to dominate > society. Art was a big part of that evolutionary shift. Some scholars make a > case that the artists are always at the cutting edge of these things and I > think this is especially true if people like Einstein, James and Picasso can > all be counted equally as artists. That book Platt and I like, Art and Physics, makes this point profoundly. Usually artistic genius precedes rational intellectual evolution. But here is what happens when society evolves into such a permanent and all-pervasive questioning of traditional values that there are no traditional values left, we experience a backlash reaction that is worse than the stultifying traditional values you were initially escaping. Nazism was a reaction to Berlin's Cabaret. dmb says: > > Well, personally, I always thought the case in favor of family values was > bizarre and insulting. Even apes value stable homes and family. I've been > married for nearly 16 years and have a 9 year-old son as well as a home and > dog. I really don't kitschy art or conservative politics to hold that > together for me. It just comes natural. Other than the criminally insane, > who doesn't value stable homes and family? I certainly don't know anyone who > doesn't. True to a point. Everybody values stable family homes, taken as a result. Just like everyone enjoys a western decadent lifestyle predicated upon a capitalist system that only works with a people who possess values of thrift and honor and freedom. But does everyone enjoy the constraints that dictate those results or those values? I don't think so. I think too many people expect the results of a moral society without having to be a moral society. > dmb says: > > Well, obviously the benefits of the little schoolhouse stem from the > student to teacher ratio and the amount of personal attention that comes > from that. Uh, not so obvious. I completely disagree, in fact. With a mix of ages, kids teach each other more effectively than they listen to adults. I'm not saying you don't need an adult teacher in charge, but the one room school house has this main advantage, a collection of kids becomes a community of kids. My particular bias was that having four kids, pretty close in age, they could continue to look after one another at school, instead of being separated and forced to socialize with a particular group, they had more freedom and security. It's not more teachers for kids that we need. It's more kids as teachers. It's a win/win situation because when you get kids invested in each other, you're teaching them to create autonomous societys of real individuals as opposed to factory cogs in a machine. Ideally speaking. dmb] It's almost as if our education system was designed by Henry Ford. john] Henry Ford was greatly impressed by what Gatto called, "the Prussian system" dmb] He thought people ought not be TOO educated. Just enough to follow instructions like a good factory worker should. He was pen pals with Hitler, by the way, and they admired each other greatly. john] Hitler was a big fan of the Prussian system as well. You could say, Hitler was the Prussian system personified. dmb] He was real big on family values too, that Henry. Hated Jews with a passion but he sure loved his mother. john] Yeah, Yeah. And Hitler loved dogs. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ -- ------------ Doing Good IS Being ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
