On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:41 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > If the English symbol "intellectual" means the ability to distinguish > between other and self (objective from subjective) then the symbol > applies to my cat UTOE and all other life forms. Even if they may not be > self-aware, they act as if they know the difference between self and > other. So I don't think that the symbol "intellectual" defines the value of > the MOQ 4th level. Rather, what defines the MOQ 4th level is the > VALUE OF SYMBOL MANIPULATION over the social level's value of > conventional human thoughts, ideas and concepts including the S/O, > mind/matter split. From different perspectives we arrive at the same > conclusion -- the 4th level's value is NOT concepts, ideas or thoughts.
Good points in there Platt. I'm looking at your distinction between intellectual and social and have a few wonderings: First, it occurs to me that the distinction between self and other is very markedly a social - level value. Certainly before we can have any social interaction at all, we must see ourselves and others in relation, therefore the self-other dichotomy is the primary reality of the social level, is this not true? Second, communication occurs at the social level, but thinking about communication occurs at the intellectual. That one-upmanship of abstraction is the defined beginning of the intellectual level. Still with me? Good. Now, some concepts, ideas and thoughts are abstractions, but when you say they are not the level's value, you mean that they are the 4th level's toys rather than it's goal? It's goal or value being GOOD ideas, concepts and thoughts? If that's what you're saying, it makes a lot of sense to me. > > > Yes, using symbols to reflect an assumed external reality is certainly > part of intellect's symbol making repertoire. But since using symbols this > way is such a conventional part of human thought I consider it a social > level value rather than an intellectual level value. Communication itself is a social value. Thinking about the quality of communication is intellectual. Got you. I'm still there. > Remember that > symbol manipulation (intellect) was created to serve the needs of > society for food, shelter, clothing and to identify friends from enemies. > To accomplish those goals, the symbolic subject/object division was as > necessary for society's survival as it is today. > > To your other point about how using the symbol "ineffable" to describe > DQ "screws up" the MOQ. "Ineffable" means beyond symbolic reflection > or representation. I don't see how what is beyond the MOQ can "screw > up" the MOQ any more than the symbol "aesthetic" can screw up a > poem. > depends upon the quality of the poem, of course. Fer instance... There once was man from Cathetix, Who worked in sales for prosthetics He'd often beg for an arm and a leg Just to make you look un-aesthetic > As argued above, I consider the reality/concept split a social value. It is > the basis of conventional thinking and is necessary for survival. What > makes up the the intellectual level is symbol manipulation, represented > primarily by mathematics, symbolic logic and computer "languages" that > dominate today's scientific amoral methodology. By itself, the number 6 > is no better or worse than the number 2. That's the problem of the > intellectual level, not the S/O split which serves human survival needs > well. > I thought James Carse's quote on the screw-up science made in converting a methodology into a belief system as a defense against theism was very interesting. I'd like to read his latest. > > So for me the bottom line is that the value of the intellectual level is > not SOM but symbol manipulation. But in attaining that value, humanity > lost its soul. "The world was no doubt in better shape intellectually and > technologically but despite that, somehow, the "quality" of it was not > good. There was no way you could say why this quality was no good. > You just felt it." (Lila, 22) > The MOQ brings back quality to modern life > Theoretically, anyway. -- ------------ There are differing interpretations of Reality, some are just better than others, that's all. ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
