Greetings Bo, I certainly understand you wanting to keep religion separate, and it does seem the mystic experience is often linked to religious traditions, but it doesn't have to be so. I've read that even the Dalai Lama, in his efforts to bring together East and West, has warned to be attentive to what is insight/wisdom and what is cultural tradition, which are often entangled. The Buddhist traditions are beneficial because they are not theistic, and their purpose is to bring enlightenment (however that word may be understood or misunderstood) to benefit all.
Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism, promote meditation as the important technique for gaining insight (imho). It always astounds me that more on this MD List do not see the importance of meditation. In promoting Steve Hagen's book, 'Buddhism Plain and Simple', I think RMP has made a strong suggestion that meditation is more than beneficial. For one, it puts you in touch with your patterns. Personally, I think that if you want access to the state beyond the intellectual, meditation is essential. The Buddhist Middle Way tradition has also proved very important to my understanding of the Dynamic/static split. I understand all static patterns as conventional reality, conventional truth, and Dynamic Quality equivalent to Emptiness and Ultimate Truth. And while the intellectual patterns within the Western sciences are used to understand and explain an inherently existing external world of objects, the Eastern intellect is used to show the illusionary nature of both self and objects and much more sympathetic to the concept of interrelated, ever-changing patterns. (When I speak of my understanding, I mean understanding to the best of my ability. I'm not a Buddhist or a Buddhist scholar.) RMP has made a connection between Buddhism and the MoQ, and I think it very worthwhile to explore that connection. After all it seems the one purpose of the MoQ is to bring together the Western intellect with the Eastern insight/wisdom. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship. Marsha 15 Sep you wrote: > I am happy to state I cannot possibly support your SOL thesis if it > considers the Buddhist point-of-view irrelevant. But as before I do > agree with you on the three points: 1.) that the Intellectual Level > is a subject/object level. 2.) that the MoQ is better represented by > a Quality(static(patterned experience)/Dynamic(unpatterned > experience)) Level above the Intellectual Level, and 3.) that the > Intellectual Level was birthed at the time of Plato/Aristotle&Company > with the rational/irrational split. (Although I am becoming > increasingly convinced that the rational/irrational split was a > trumped up fallacy.) Your agreements are much appreciated and covers the SOL completely. Regarding my "saving the MOQ from Zen" I've tried various ways of conveying my approach and this is my best entry. Applying the MOQ's level matrix, the concept "religion" as something mystic that ignores reason emerged after reason (SOM or the intellectual level). While the social level was leading edge people lived in (what intellect calls) a magical reality, everything was mystical and then nothing was mystical (the fish knows no water because it's totally immersed in it) Now I don my seven leagues boots. Intellect emerged in Greece (in the Western hemisphere) and its rationality was kind of adapted by the Romans who - even if they had gods - developed many intellect-based institution and I think it was around this time that the term "religion" was coined, mainly about the monotheism myth in the Roman province Judea. When intellect returned in force after the Middle Ages the secular/religious distinction was constantly more deep, i.e. religion became something subjective, private and - um - "mystic". The MOQ however changes everything by superimposing its DQ/SQ over it all thereby relegating the religious/secular distinction to its intellectual level with no "jurisdiction" outside it and is why I am reluctant to associate the MOQ with Zen which is associated with "religion" and/or "mysticism" in the Western hemisphere and then MOQ is caught in the S/O it is supposed to be an escape from. . But I may be wrong as Platt says. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
