Will2, I'm going to offer you the same quote that I offered Steve:
"He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has." (Friedrich von Schiller) Static patterns of value are our conventional life and are conventionally real. The concept of a 'sematic circle of intellectual deception', though, is pretty analogy. Do you think the word is the thing? Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of markhsmit Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty Hi Marsha, That is my point exactly. The idol is real. However, it is said that we should not worship idols. So that real object of worship is beyond idol. We can call the new idol "beyond idol". Any object of worship has to be an idol. We cannot imagine the unimaginable. Which bring me to my earlier point. We can imagine something which is beyond definition. It is the present, the now, the Ground of all. It is Quality, or Reality. However, we seem to think that somehow that it is different from thinking or reasoning. If we reason or define, by some rule we are no longer discussing Quality, but somehow separate. My point that by defining Quality, we are directly experiencing it, not distancing ourselves from it. It seems a bit of trite to say that the ineffable exists, and cannot be communicated, it's everything around. It would appear to me that some of the posts about Quality are drifting heavily into the mystical. Which is fine, since that is all part of it. So, what is real to me? It is every single thing I experience at the moment, skiing down a hillside, reading a book, my memories, my fantasies. To say those things are not real becomes a semantic circle of intellectual deception. But even that circle of deception is real. Quality is not something outside of us that we can objectify but it certainly is not ineffable. Cheers, Willblake2 On Sep 21, 2009, at 1:13:55 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: From: MarshaV <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty Date: September 21, 2009 1:13:55 AM PDT To: [email protected] Will, What is the 'real thing' to you? What is 'real' to you? Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of markhsmit Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty Hi all, This notion of quality being undefinable and only an experience is all a bunch of semantic nonsense! Like the rule not to worship idols. You have to worship the real thing... A definition is an experience! Where do you draw the line at what is experience and what isn't? Reading these posts is an experience. When I think of the definition of water, that is an experience. Show me some definition that is not an experience. Labeling something as undefinable is a definition, and that definition is an experience. When you define Quality, that is an experience. Dividing reality up into definitions and experience is pure nonsense and doesn't lead anywhere. It is phantom reasoning through semantics. Cheers, Willblake2 On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:39:25 PM, "John Carl" <[email protected]> wrote: From: "John Carl" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] Uncertainty Date: September 15, 2009 10:39:25 PM PDT To: [email protected] > > > > Hi John and all, > > Imho in a DQ/SQ metaphysics there will always be something undefined in our > knowledge. SOM proposed that the undefined was found in S. Does that mean > that I can¹t be held responsible for what I am doing? Morality requires an > evolutionary environment for precision. > Joe, I believe that the MoQ teaches that while Quality is undefinable as a concept, it is an apprehensible experience. In other words, Quality can only be defined in experience. This experience is all the precision needed for morality. John, humming along Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
