John 30 Sep. :
I had said: > Look, a MOQ tenet is that the lower the level the firmer the latch and > that "existence" will drop to the next lower if the higher slips. The > social the safe haven if intellect gives way and biology still firmer. John: > Well some of what I'm disparaging here Bo, is a rigid interpretation > of the levels. I think the great value the MoQ provides is the > analytic knife dividing up the elements. The next step of making > these levels into simple 1-2-3-4 progressional hierarchical > metaphysics... The MOQ postulates the DQ/SQ split, the four static levels, their growth and spawning of the next, if this is rigid so be it. The MOQ isn't the "anything goes" that Ron peddles > I'm not so keen. And if your stipulation that this is a basic tenet, > then I guess I'm taking on a basic tenet. So to untangle this, just > give me a good example of an intellectual pattern slipping. First a bit on intellect - the level - and Pirsig's on what its patterns are, namely "modernity" (science) but also the political aspects of democracy, human rights and -worth, "man born free" ..etc. This in contrast to the social level's emphasis on "man" subbordinate to the common cause. For instance when the Nazis emerged (according to Pirsig it was social values' "last stand" in the West) it could not be countered with democratic means - the West's intellectual values "slipped" and it reverted to the same level as its foe where the individual's duty is to fight and die. Freedoms and the rights were abandoned for the necessary war effort, the free press suddenly a propaganda apparatus ... etc. However this was just temporary, once the war was over intellect bounced back stronger than ever. > I mean, when a man dies, his brain stops. He doesn't go from the > intellectual to the social. He goes from the intellectual to the > barely biological and soon inorganic. "To go from intellectual" is not losing consciousness in moqspeak but losing the ability to be objective. Likewise entetring the social is not being wheeled off to a nursing home, but the reality where emotions dominate. But upon sudden death it's straight back to basics. > yeah, rocks seem pretty firm. That's why they should be "on top". > sheesh Well if you insist being a contrarian ;-) > Ok then, we're in agreement. From now on, rocks are in charge. The levels are a rise of the lower to a new "power". Biology is "inorganic 2." Society is "biology 2." and intellect "society 2." ... or "intellect=inorganic 4." is another way of seeing it. Bo: > > Well, I hope you regard modern, technological (intellectual ) > > existence as better than the Stone Age (social) one? Once the > > Quality context the progress is obvious. John: > Ok that's a big set up. Because the Stone Age is a creation of your > cultural mythos. An earlier eye-opening discussion in my life was > from my philosophical mentor, Sessions, who pointed out some research > that "primitive" man worked an average of 13 hours a week for his > sustenance, whereas factory workers of the modern age have to do more > AND if they are lucky, get a couple of weeks a year to fish and hunt > (the "work", incidentally of this stupid primitive that you modern man > disparages). This can be discussed for ever, yet no one actually opts for it. At least you must admit that social existence was a step up from the biological. Or do you prefer the "inorganic"? > The richness of an society is not so easy to judge from a materialistic > metaphysical distance and I don't accept your assertion that Quality > follows from skyscrapers alone. You could make an argument for a more > dynamic society with more choices, but when most of the choices are bad > and compared with the need for a basic life of being in direct > connection with one's environmental context - non-MEDIATED - is not a > facile judgement based upon your intellectualization. I don't really "intellectualize" (focus at the fourth level) I rather "intelligencialize" (is that a word?) from the MOQ point of view. About Ron: > He makes a really good point; take it like a man, Bo. Metaphysics > ain't for sissies. Ron is the epitome of politness compared to the old days when - f.ex. one Squonktail was around. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
