Hi Mark, No, no Dali like experience for me, although, I admire Dali's creative invention very much. - There was first a sense of squinting, but that is all I'm going to say. It makes me uncomfortable to put it into words for I know it sounds nuts. The words sound nuts even to me. The experience was very simple. I agree with you the words about experience (reality (Quality)) are not the experience (reality (Quality)). I guess we can all go home and give up this compulsion for metaphysics. - Psycho-emotional is your choice of words, mine is simply unpatterned experience, experience with no meaning and no connotation, experience with no past or present. For me it's the patterns that overwhelm direct experience, but for the moment that seems okay. They are no longer "real" as in the SOM sense. They are more like waves that come and go.
Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of markhsmit Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism Hi Marsha, I have come to believe that unpatterned experience (I think I see it the same way as you), overwhelms patterned experience. The patterning agent in terms of my experience is the hindsight of intellect. That is putting things into boxes and relating them to other boxes, thus creating a pattern. But this for me is only the tip of the iceberg of experience. This is one reason why I can't readily assimilate to the intellect actually being level. It is a simplification, and it can not ever gain enough information to direct the underlying consciousness. Everything our intellect knows now, will someday be outdated. Intellect may actually be the antithesis of Quality since it prevents its evolution. The intellect is a static pattern, much more static than the other levels. The unpatterned for me is the psycho-emotional. It has patterns, but not nicely fit into boxes like the intellect. There were days when I was practicing non-attachment and trying not to put names to anything I saw. It was kind of like making the brain fuzzy, like looking through smokey glasses. In this way I was able, at times, to make everything novel. Nothing triggered a memory. I'm sure you've seen the paintings by Dali which show what memory does to us. The child has no great memory. Memory seems to just tie us down and turn us into robots. IMO. Cheers, Mark On Nov 23, 2009, at 12:53:57 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: From: MarshaV <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism Date: November 23, 2009 12:53:57 AM PST To: [email protected] Hi Mark, Asking seems to defy the fact that I am trying to emphasize experience. My unpatterned experience is not vast or deep, but is at least actual. _It is experience sans patterns._ It's experience I've probably had many times while listening to classical music (music without words or concepts like a march), and maybe unconsciously at times while painting. But lately I've been able to have visual experiences, looking/seeing without patterns being applied to the image. (Unbelieveable.) I didn't claim anything more insightful, only unpatterned experience and patterned experience. I mentioned to you that meditation brought me to the point where I was able to "watch" thoughts move through awareness. When I was fully involved in this process, I didn't really get the significance, but only how odd it was. As I have spent much time trying to get at the nature of patterns, it easy to see these are pattern-like. It was probably as much my meditation experience that made ZMM so powerful for me. - There something wrong about everything I said. Like there was some progression; it wasn't that. Patterned experience and unpatterned experience. Questions I ask myself: Can you be aware of patterned experience and unpatterned experience at the same time? Like a superposition? I would guess it should be possible with non-attachement. Is there information to be gained from listening to a person but ignoring their words? I've been meaning to try this, but I always seem to latch onto their words. It's so automatic. How about you, Mark, what's new pussycat? Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of markhsmit Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 2:13 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism Hi Marsha, If I may jump in with a question. Can unpatterned experience become patterned experience? Or are the two always separate. I'm just trying to understand your semantics. If unpatterned experience can become patterned, what is the process for this happening? If I can understand this dynamic interchange it will explain a lot. Can patterned experience become unpatterned? What makes something patterned and another not? Thanks for your help with this. Mark On Nov 22, 2009, at 12:59:31 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: From: MarshaV <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism Date: November 22, 2009 12:59:31 PM PST To: [email protected] Greetings Bo, No, there is no out there/in here, but only unpatterned experience and patterned experience. The MoQ as level versus the MoQ as intellectual pattern has been puzzling me for a very long time. I agree, the Intellectual Level cannot logically include the MoQ, b-u-t everything said about the MoQ is intellectualization (intellectual spovs). My mind keeps wandering back to the University example. Just like the University is not the buildings, the faculty, the allumni, etc., neither is the MoQ the descriptions, definitions or explanations of it. Both the Univesity and the MoQ are systems, and because a metaphysics is a system describing reality it the highest order system. So the MoQ is Quality equals unpatterned experience (DQ) and patterned experience (sq), and not the books, explanations, not the patterns, evolution, or a moral order, and not even RMP's comments trying to point us to look in the right direction. Unpatterned experience and patterned experience! What do you think? Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism Greetings Marsha 21 Nov.you wrote (to Andrè) > I very much agree with Bo that the Intellectual Level is comprised of > subject/object patterns, and I agree that there should be an emerging > Quality Level above the Intellectual Level. Good. Not because of us forming a faction, but because that is the only possible interpretation of the 4th. level that makes sense. Regarding the MOQ as a "level" it follows from not being (able to be) part of intellect because it (intellect) is part of the MOQ. > I believe the Quality Level represents a paradigm shift as large as the > shift from social patterns to intellectual patterns. Right you are! There is a level-like relationship between the highest static good and the "system" that casts it in that role. By Goodness, it is not every day a new world order is born and some birth pain/difficulties will be encountered. You are a promising "midwife" ;-) > Actually, I think it was modesty that prevented RMP from adding this > new level. Wish it was, but I believe intellect's immune apparatus struck at him upon his discovery of its (intellect's) SOM quality and that he backed down (on this most crucial - SOM = intellect - point to re-gain his sanity. What nonplusses me is that it was the post-hospital Pirsig who wrote ZAMM. > But I also think the MoQ is an intellectual static pattern of value, > while what it points to is Quality: Dyanmic and static, or as I like to > say, unpatterned experience and patterned experience. If we stay with the "birth" analogy, the MOQ was conceived in SOM's womb, but presses on to be born as a separate entity, in MOQ's own vocabulary it is an unruly pattern yet toed its line. Phaedrus delivered a "paper" to his colleagues (if quality was subjective or objective) and but by and by the greater context dawned on him. Your "points to" part I have reservations about, it smacks of a Quality "out there" that the MOQ "in here" is ONE possible rendering of, but as you say below ...... we may not agree with all our respective interpretations. > It puzzles me why everyone doesn't see it, because it seems so obvious > to me. It's like the differnece between Newtonian physics and Quantum > physics, a quantum leap. Bo may not agree with all my MoQ > interpretations, nor I agree with all his, but I did want to state on > these two point I definitaly agree with Bo. Quantum leap, you bet. Bodvar > > > Marsha > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andre > Broersen Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 12:19 PM To: > [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism > > Bodvar: > Platt, Andre, All > > 20 Nov: > > Platt: > > To be precise, all concepts such as "time" and explanatory > > dimensions" are intellectual PoV. Which brings to mind Bo's idea > > that the MOQ is transconceptual and therefore timeless, which fits > > with Quality being outside definition. Maybe we're getting somewhere > > after all. > > Many of the issues raised has been discussed before (and consensus > arrived at?) and resides somewhere in the archives. > > Andre: > You are correct Bodvar, in stating that the intellectual level and > your SOL have been raised over and over again, over a period of more > than 10 years now...though to state/ask about consensus being arrived > at I am not so sure. I have been diving in the archives over the past > few weeks and there isn't any agreement that I could find. > > More learned fellows and women than me have stated their views and who > am I to add anything new to either challenge or confirm? Perhaps it is > better to leave the question regarding the 'mysteries' of the > intellectual level hanging (so to speak) as a continued tension > between DQ/SQ. > > Perhaps this is a cop-out on my part but I do not intend it that way. > > As said before, Mr.Pirsig has let his views be known. I wish to remain > neutral in this matter. It does tend to take up a lot of energy better > spent on other things. > > Questions remain and answers fly right over my head sometimes. E.g why > can the MoQ not be an intellectual PoV, as Pirsig maintains it is? > > Is intuition an intellectual PoV? How is Quality excluded from the MoQ > if the MoQ is an intellectual PoV? > > Anyway, I do not know where this will end up but am sure where I will > end up. And it is not in the percolator. > > Perhaps another level is required. Pirsig has stated not to have > objections to this but he still feels that the four 'levels' are > sufficient plus the Code. I highly respect this stance. > > Regards > Andre > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
