Hello Andre.
Bodvar before:
> Thanks Andre for digging up this quote, I know that some will twist
> even this out of shape, but look. Pirsig says that the MOQ employs
> S/O reasoning, the way SOM employs social ... etc. I.e. he treats
> the MOQ in a level- like relationship with SOM and places SOM in
> intellect's role versus the social level. Can the SOL be expressed
> more unequivocally?.The intellectual level is SOM and the MOQ
> something that uses intellect, but is not subordinate to it.
Andre:
> I want to highlight this passage:
He treats the MOQ in a level- like relationship with SOM... .
> My take on this is that Mr.Pirsig places the MoQ level in intellect's
> role vs SOM........
Speaking of "twisting out of shape". The point is that no level "knows"
the level context, the higher level AT ANY STAGE simply considers
existence as made for its own's sake and that all facilities are to be
employed for own purpose. From the MOQ seen however we know
that when a level is new there are no own facilities it's the lower levels
patterns it utilizes. Then how can the MOQ - as intellect - employ SOM
unless SOM becomes "social" which it clearly isn't. No, its the MOQ
that utilizes intellect's S/O reasoning to knock it down. Like a fighter
uses his opponents own momentum to fell him.
> I think that the thing to understand, to grasp here, is the 'M'
> swap...Q/M replacing S/O M. The 'M' representing the intellectual
> representation of Reality i.e Quality.
Metaphysics in the MOQ sense is reality itself and infinitely grander
than the Aristotelian (intellectual) article which is the known "theory
ABOUT reality". In an enlarged sense any level - while "leading edge"
- were that epoch's "metaphysics". While life was the spearhead its
"jungle value" was the only reality there were. Then the "M" was taken
over by the social reality and for hundreds of thousands of years its
"common cause" value ruled unchallenged until intellect arrived on the
scene and its S/O took over the "M", and the rest is history.
> Don't forget that the MoQ is an idea!
If you mean that the MOQ began as an intellectual pattern - right - but
after Phaedrus had had his "tournament" with the SOM "bull" and
rejected both horns and had found that SOM was Quality's creation
then a new metaphysical reality was born that took over the "M" and
relegated SOM the more humble role as its own static intellectual
level.
> And to suggest that Q 'uses' intellect but is not subordinate to it I
> fully, wholeheartedly subscribe to. The intellectual level is, at
> present the fullest representation of Quality in existence...if only
> more people would realise this....
Hope you will realize that postulating the STATIC intellectual level as
Quality's fullest representation violates the container logic. God knows
what compels the notion of a Quality grander than MOQ's DQ? After
Newton it became obvious that (his theory's) gravity was eternal and
after Pirsig it will be obvious that (the MOQ's) DQ is eternal, but to
postulate a Quality outside of the MOQ is letting the SOM in again: An
ineffable Quality-reality that the MOQ' merely is one possible theory
about.
Well, you are challenging my SOL and never letting me get away with
sloppy formulations and that's good.
Bodvar
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