> [Krimel] > Evolution doesn't drive anything. It is a description of how patterns > adapt in response to change, flux, uncertainty; in other words dynamic > quality. Evolution is a reflexive process where the output of one cycle > becomes the input for the next.
Dan: Dynamic Quality isn't change and uncertainty. Evolution is the process of natural selection. [Krimel] I snipped the Pirsig quotes because I have discussed them at length many times. In short, Pirsig's understanding of evolution is shamefully wrong. This clearly is not his area of expertise and his thinking on the matter was way off target even considering the time during which he was writing. Citing Pirsig as an "expert" on evolution is just embarrassing. But take the sketch you outline about. Natural selection does not mean that Mother Nature is gussied up in a nice apron picking and choosing which of her offspring deserve to make up the next generation. Natural selection is purely and simply a matter of chance. It is static patterns congealing out of dynamic and chaotic interactions. If only Pirsig had understood this. But just to take a small example from your Pirsig quotes: "Dynamic Quality is not structured and yet it is not chaotic." This was "common sense" when Pirsig wrote Lila but any thinking adult today should be able to see that it is false. For one thing many things that are structured are chaotic. The stock market is highly structured and yet it is unpredictable and chaotic on a day to day basis. Structures and patterns are subsets of chaos they are not different from or other than chaos. Static and dynamic are relative terms that describe a continuum of chaotic behavior. That really is the central point of the MoQ. At least an MoQ that actually has a contribution to make. [Pirsig] "Good! The "undefined fittest" they are defending is identical to Dynamic Quality. Natural selection is Dynamic Quality at work. There is no quarrel whatsoever between the Metaphysics of Quality and the Darwinian Theory of Evolution. Neither is there a quarrel between the Metaphysics of Quality and the "teleological" theories which insist that life has some purpose. What the Metaphysics of Quality has done is unite these opposed doctrines within a larger metaphysical structure that accommodates both of them without contradiction." (LILA) Dan: Undefined fittest is identical to Dynamic Quality. Not change, not uncertainty, not chaos, not any sort of concept at all. Do you see? [Krimel] OK, you suckered me into another of Pirsig's silly quotes from Chapter 11. I totally agree that Natural selection is DQ at work. In fact I would say that both the MoQ and evolutionary theory are about how static forms come to exist and persist under chaotic conditions. If only Pirsig had had the good sense to stop there. [Dan] Thanks Krimel, and good to have you back, [Krimel] Thanks Dan, but relax I won't be here long. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
