Patterns are real by convention, but not Real.
On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:34 PM, X Acto wrote: > What do you consider to be Real? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 3:45:04 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics > > > Hi Mark, > > Science has represented patterns for good, but also patterns of great > destruction. Theism has represented patterns for good, but also patterns > of great destruction. For me, they are both best understood as static > patterns of value, and not anything Real. Not Real!!! > > I think what is dangerous is not to understand the nature of > all static patterns of value. There lies the freedom to choose. imho > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:04 PM, markhsmit wrote: > >> >> Hi Marsha, >> >> Yea, science is a useful tool, in the same way a hammer is. When >> science suddenly becomes the hammer of God, I must point out >> that such a notion is dangerous. >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> I'm finding the more some strut their scientific stuff, the more >> transparent their "stuff" becomes. It's very humorous. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:58 PM, markhsmit wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> >>> I see now. My tactic is more "how do you know something >>> is true if you only read it". Yes, science is a faith, which means >>> that if you do not question it, you are a true believer. While >>> there is nothing wrong with this if used in a kind and altruistic >>> way, it is dangerous when one tries to convert others. >>> >>> Unquestioned belief in science allows for the manipulation >>> of the masses. This is something I am truly against since >>> I am for individualism. I believe Quality can best be expressed >>> through the individual, and not through an institution. >>> >>> This is the difference that I see between ZAMM and Lila. ZAMM >>> is a story about a spiritual awakening, Lila is more about building >>> a church, (imo). The more structure one puts up, the lower the >>> Quality. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> Mark, >>> >>> No sweet Mark, I think, like you, that science too often is accepted >>> without question. I asked a question. I asked Krimel if Einstein's >>> general theory of relativity was science. No trap --- no trap, no cat, >>> and no mouse. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, markhsmit wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, >>>> Oh, so you set a trap, eh. Cat and mouse? Catch Krimel out. >>>> I guess we all learn in our own way. >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No Mark, the subject was not the scientific method. The subject is >>>> deductive >>>> logic which Krimel said might have problems because of NonEuclidean >>>> geometry >>>> such as Riemannian geometry, which Einstein used in the general theory of >>>> relativity. But he'd rather dance away with a Ouiji board. Fine. >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:27 AM, markhsmit wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> [Marsha] >>>>>> I think I remember that Einstein used Riemannian geometry in the general >>>>>> theory of relativity. >>>>>> Is the general theory of relativy science? >>>>>> >>>>>> [Krimel] >>>>>> It is a work of theoretical physics. >>>>> >>>>> Marsha: >>>>> I guess you are saying that theoretical physics, Einstein's general >>>>> theory >>>>> of relativity, is not science because it uses deductive logic which is >>>>> not >>>>> the basis of the scientific method. >>>>> >>>>> [Krimel] >>>>> Scientists employ any means they wish to construct a theory or a >>>>> hypothesis. >>>>> They can use induction or deduction. They can see it in a dream or get it >>>>> from a Ouija board. But, the theory has to be testable, It needs to offer >>>>> some improvement in our understanding or our ability to make predictions. >>>>> That is, a new theory has to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty. >>>>> Einstein's theory offered predictions about certain observable events that >>>>> differed from Newton's theory. >>>>> [Mark] >>>>> Marsha, >>>>> What you seem to be asking is what is the scientific method. As Krimel >>>>> suggests, one >>>>> of the results of the scientific method is predictability. In hindsight >>>>> one could say >>>>> that if predictability results, a scientific method was used. This kind >>>>> of explanation >>>>> is useful for illumination purposes. Another way to view it, is that the >>>>> scientific method is really just an elaborate extension of what we all do >>>>> every day. >>>>> When you put your hand in the shower to see if it is warm enough, that is >>>>> the >>>>> scientific method. The science is predicting that at a certain interval >>>>> the water will >>>>> become warm enough to get in. To become more scientific about it, you >>>>> would >>>>> time the interval that it takes to get warm with a watch. If you pay >>>>> attention, then >>>>> you may notice that it takes longer if it is cold outside. So, you have >>>>> to introduce >>>>> a new variable, that is the temperature outside. Also the rate of warming >>>>> depends >>>>> on how fast the water is flowing. As the detail of these observations >>>>> grow, the >>>>> predictability gets better. This is no different from other empirical >>>>> studies, they >>>>> just get more and more complicated. Measurement, prediction, measurement >>>>> prediction, introduction of new variable, prediction, measurement, test >>>>> for accuracy. >>>>> >>>>> Those that are good at this, compile many of these variables in their >>>>> heads without >>>>> knowing it and can take jumps. They can amalgamate seemingly unrelated >>>>> observations >>>>> and bring them into the equation. These genius leaps mark a good >>>>> scientist, and >>>>> are similar to genius leaps in art, sports, and, yes, even religion. >>>>> Einstein was >>>>> able to do this with general relativity. However to do so he had to go >>>>> against >>>>> conventional thinking. This is also the mark of a creative scientist, >>>>> which >>>>> are periodically needed to bridge seemingly wrong data. Many of Einstein's >>>>> predictions took years to prove afterwards. He based much of his >>>>> science on math, which has a remarkable property of predicting what >>>>> we observe. The trick is trying to understand what the equations mean >>>>> in the real world, and whether they are useful. An infinite number of >>>>> equations can be formulated, only a few are useful. An intuitive >>>>> grasp of the right choice is needed as it gets more complicated. >>>>> >>>>> So, there is nothing mysterious about the scientific method, you use >>>>> it all the time. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
