Yea, and so are puppies and granite.
On Jan 22, 2010, at 8:44 AM, X Acto wrote: > Does that mean science or theology is real by convention? > since they both are pattern. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 9:45:45 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics > > > > Patterns are real by convention, but not Real. > > > > On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:34 PM, X Acto wrote: > >> What do you consider to be Real? >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 3:45:04 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics >> >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> Science has represented patterns for good, but also patterns of great >> destruction. Theism has represented patterns for good, but also patterns >> of great destruction. For me, they are both best understood as static >> patterns of value, and not anything Real. Not Real!!! >> >> I think what is dangerous is not to understand the nature of >> all static patterns of value. There lies the freedom to choose. imho >> >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:04 PM, markhsmit wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Marsha, >>> >>> Yea, science is a useful tool, in the same way a hammer is. When >>> science suddenly becomes the hammer of God, I must point out >>> that such a notion is dangerous. >>> >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>> I'm finding the more some strut their scientific stuff, the more >>> transparent their "stuff" becomes. It's very humorous. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:58 PM, markhsmit wrote: >>> >>>> Marsha, >>>> >>>> I see now. My tactic is more "how do you know something >>>> is true if you only read it". Yes, science is a faith, which means >>>> that if you do not question it, you are a true believer. While >>>> there is nothing wrong with this if used in a kind and altruistic >>>> way, it is dangerous when one tries to convert others. >>>> >>>> Unquestioned belief in science allows for the manipulation >>>> of the masses. This is something I am truly against since >>>> I am for individualism. I believe Quality can best be expressed >>>> through the individual, and not through an institution. >>>> >>>> This is the difference that I see between ZAMM and Lila. ZAMM >>>> is a story about a spiritual awakening, Lila is more about building >>>> a church, (imo). The more structure one puts up, the lower the >>>> Quality. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark, >>>> >>>> No sweet Mark, I think, like you, that science too often is accepted >>>> without question. I asked a question. I asked Krimel if Einstein's >>>> general theory of relativity was science. No trap --- no trap, no cat, >>>> and no mouse. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, markhsmit wrote: >>>> >>>>> Marsha, >>>>> Oh, so you set a trap, eh. Cat and mouse? Catch Krimel out. >>>>> I guess we all learn in our own way. >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No Mark, the subject was not the scientific method. The subject is >>>>> deductive >>>>> logic which Krimel said might have problems because of NonEuclidean >>>>> geometry >>>>> such as Riemannian geometry, which Einstein used in the general theory of >>>>> relativity. But he'd rather dance away with a Ouiji board. Fine. >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:27 AM, markhsmit wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> [Marsha] >>>>>>> I think I remember that Einstein used Riemannian geometry in the general >>>>>>> theory of relativity. >>>>>>> Is the general theory of relativy science? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Krimel] >>>>>>> It is a work of theoretical physics. >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> I guess you are saying that theoretical physics, Einstein's general >>>>>> theory >>>>>> of relativity, is not science because it uses deductive logic which is >>>>>> not >>>>>> the basis of the scientific method. >>>>>> >>>>>> [Krimel] >>>>>> Scientists employ any means they wish to construct a theory or a >>>>>> hypothesis. >>>>>> They can use induction or deduction. They can see it in a dream or get it >>>>>> from a Ouija board. But, the theory has to be testable, It needs to offer >>>>>> some improvement in our understanding or our ability to make predictions. >>>>>> That is, a new theory has to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty. >>>>>> Einstein's theory offered predictions about certain observable events >>>>>> that >>>>>> differed from Newton's theory. >>>>>> [Mark] >>>>>> Marsha, >>>>>> What you seem to be asking is what is the scientific method. As Krimel >>>>>> suggests, one >>>>>> of the results of the scientific method is predictability. In hindsight >>>>>> one could say >>>>>> that if predictability results, a scientific method was used. This kind >>>>>> of explanation >>>>>> is useful for illumination purposes. Another way to view it, is that the >>>>>> scientific method is really just an elaborate extension of what we all >>>>>> do every day. >>>>>> When you put your hand in the shower to see if it is warm enough, that >>>>>> is the >>>>>> scientific method. The science is predicting that at a certain interval >>>>>> the water will >>>>>> become warm enough to get in. To become more scientific about it, you >>>>>> would >>>>>> time the interval that it takes to get warm with a watch. If you pay >>>>>> attention, then >>>>>> you may notice that it takes longer if it is cold outside. So, you have >>>>>> to introduce >>>>>> a new variable, that is the temperature outside. Also the rate of >>>>>> warming depends >>>>>> on how fast the water is flowing. As the detail of these observations >>>>>> grow, the >>>>>> predictability gets better. This is no different from other empirical >>>>>> studies, they >>>>>> just get more and more complicated. Measurement, prediction, measurement >>>>>> prediction, introduction of new variable, prediction, measurement, test >>>>>> for accuracy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Those that are good at this, compile many of these variables in their >>>>>> heads without >>>>>> knowing it and can take jumps. They can amalgamate seemingly unrelated >>>>>> observations >>>>>> and bring them into the equation. These genius leaps mark a good >>>>>> scientist, and >>>>>> are similar to genius leaps in art, sports, and, yes, even religion. >>>>>> Einstein was >>>>>> able to do this with general relativity. However to do so he had to go >>>>>> against >>>>>> conventional thinking. This is also the mark of a creative scientist, >>>>>> which >>>>>> are periodically needed to bridge seemingly wrong data. Many of >>>>>> Einstein's >>>>>> predictions took years to prove afterwards. He based much of his >>>>>> science on math, which has a remarkable property of predicting what >>>>>> we observe. The trick is trying to understand what the equations mean >>>>>> in the real world, and whether they are useful. An infinite number of >>>>>> equations can be formulated, only a few are useful. An intuitive >>>>>> grasp of the right choice is needed as it gets more complicated. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, there is nothing mysterious about the scientific method, you use >>>>>> it all the time. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>>> Archives: >>>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
