For me Quality equals God, so I can't drop the term without some discomfort.
Mark "The MOQ would add a fourth stage where the term "God" is completely dropped as a relic of an evil social suppression of intellectual and Dynamic freedom. The MOQ is not just atheistic in this regard. It is anti-theistic." (Pirsig, Copleston Annotations) On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Bruce Underwood wrote: > > > Hello all, I hope that you don't mind me jumping in on this thread, but here > it goes. > > Science: Science, in my opinion, ask a separate question than religion. > Science asks,"how" and religion asks "why". However,one thing that folks want > to do is to make science into a belief. IMO, science in merely a method > devised at the intellectual level to ask "how" things are made, work, > operate, etc. Science is not something to believe in, but a set of tool to > explore. That said,it has become the "church of science",as Pirsig puts it, > and has become something that people worship. > > Religion: Religion, on the other hand, firstly, attempts to look beyond the > now into unknown world of "why", but where its rudderless obsessions of > control, combined with ignorance, along with the thought "that man can know > the mind of God" has placed it in categories of distrust and hypocrisy. > Regardless of the fairy tales that have been created over the millennium, > there exists the unknown that moves and organize things against the laws of > nature. In MoQ we call it Dynamic Quality. The thing is, MoQ, at least, > provides the possibilty, with argument, for "God" to exist by whatever name > you want to give it. The purpose of religion should be to move life forward > and to give man hope. Where faith comes in is in the hope that there is more > to life than existance; I believe MoQ does that. > > The section below is from chapter 11 of Lila. > > "Thermodynamics states that all energy systems "run down" like a clock and > never rewind themselves. But life not only "runs up," converting low > energy sea-water, sunlight and air into high-energy chemicals, it keeps > multiplying itself into more and better clocks that keep "running up" > faster and faster. > Why, for example, should a group of simple, stable compounds of carbon, > hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen struggle for billions of years to organize > themselves into a professor of chemistry? What's the motive?... > > The question is: Then why does nature reverse this process? What on earth > causes the inorganic compounds to go the other way? It isn't the sun's > energy. We just saw what the sun's energy did. It has to be something > else. What is it?... Dynamic Quality" > > Theist, Agnostic, Atheist: IMO, the only person without faith is the agnostic > that does not search for the "truth". However, the one who searches for truth > will always be disappointed as a theist or atheist unless he accepts the lies > in either camp. The truth is somewhere in the middle and is found in the > journey itself. MoQ is the closet thing that points to the truth that I have > found. > > My graphical representation of this found on slide 20 of the ppt deck that I > provided a couple of weeks back. Here is the link: > http://www.thinnerself.com/files/MoQ/lila-6a.ppt > > Thanks, > > Bruce > > <!-- > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {mso-style-parent:""; > margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > mso-pagination:widow-orphan; > mso-layout-grid-align:none; > punctuation-wrap:simple; > text-autospace:none; > font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman"; > mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; > mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; > mso-header-margin:.5in; > mso-footer-margin:.5in; > mso-paper-source:0;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > --> > > <!-- > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {mso-style-parent:""; > margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > mso-pagination:widow-orphan; > mso-layout-grid-align:none; > punctuation-wrap:simple; > text-autospace:none; > font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman"; > mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; > mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; > mso-header-margin:.5in; > mso-footer-margin:.5in; > mso-paper-source:0;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > --> > > ----------------- >> [Mark] >> OK, we are not speaking the same language. In my language, creationism was >> created by the intellect. >> >> [Arlo] >> "Creationism" was an attempt to turn a social pattern of thought into an >> intellectual pattern of thought. >> >> [Mark] >> Science is intellect masquerading as high Quality. >> >> [Arlo] >> Science is an intellectual pattern. It does not need to masquerade as what it >> already is. Are there low Quality intellectual patterns? Sure. Pirsig's >> central >> condemnation is that S/O intellectual patterns are of low Quality. >> >> [Mark] >> Why would the intellect place itself above all else? >> >> [Arlo] >> I believe regarding the formulation of the MOQ it was Pirsig would placed >> intellect at the top of the static hierarchy. >> >> [Mark] >> Oh, I forgot, you claim that science is not a belief, somehow it is real. How >> did that happen? >> >> [Arlo] >> Science is an intellectual pattern. It is not "faith-based" as is "theism". I >> have no idea what you mean by "real", but I don't recall making any such >> claim. >> Both intellectual patterns (science) and social patterns (theism) are static >> patterns of value. >> >> [Mark] >> I remember the PC discussion. We can agree to disagree. >> >> [Arlo] >> Of course. >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 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