Hi Paco, Thanks. I must say, however, that my knowledge of the Christian religion is extremely limited, so some of what you posted went way over my head.
But I do agree that belief and theology are different. When one puts the former to words and rules it is like arguing over ones appreciation of a painting. How do you prove that the painting affects you the way it does? Mark Beautiful post, Mark. Are theists irrational? Perhaps some. But Christian theists would say, our faith is not irrational but is REASONABLE. Christian faith is based on acceptance of the historical (it happened) resurrection of Jesus Christ. By his ministry, suffering, death and resurrection he proved that he is what he is -- the Son of God, that he is God (in context of the Trinity). If he is God then everything he said is true, for God is one who can neither deceive nor be deceived. He revealed many things (mysteries, they are called) that must be taken on faith in him; to appreciate these mysteries one must "participate" in them as in ritual. The resurrection of Jesus is the ground fundament of the Christian. Apostle Paul: "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor 15:14) So accepting the resurrection, the Christian reasonably declares: Jesus is the historical Jesus. Jesus is the Christ. Jesus is the Christ is the Son of God. Jesus is the Christ is the Son of God is God. And he/she kneels and says: My Lord and my God. This is high quality evolution for the Christian. Reasonable but not irrational, IMHO. He/she might declare: I do not accept the God of the philosophers but the God of Jesus Christ. Now, while accepting the resurrection and believing, the Christian tries understand all this and implications by using his/her intelligence, intellect, intellectual levels, SOM, MoQ, whatever. As the schoolmen put it, it's "fides quarens intellectum", faith seeking understanding. The product is theology that runs from reactionary to liberal to progressive to leftist radical, and so on, depending on the movement of Dynamic Quality. Paco May Yahweh bless you and keep you! May Yahweh let his face shine on you, and be gracious to you! May Yahweh look kindly on you, and give you his peace! (Num. 6:24-26) --- On Fri, 1/22/10, markhsmit <[email protected]> wrote: From: markhsmit <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MD] Are theists irrational? To: [email protected] Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 2:49 PM On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:59:48 PM, "Bruce Underwood" <[email protected]> wrote: Marsha,et al. It surprises me that Pirsig would say that MoQ is anti-theist. At first glance it appears to be the same as atheist, but I do see a subtle difference that connotes an attack on theism. That is so far from Zen and a concept of balance that it surprises me that it would be part of MoQ. Faith, IMO, is to believe in something that cannot be proven, but is accepted into ones belief anyway. An atheist has accepted that there is "No God" even in the absence of proof, which is the same as theist's belief that there is a "God". Therefore, both have "faith". I see the agnostic as one who would accept theism if it could be proven and perhaps atheism as well. I would assume that MoQ would be equally anti-atheist as it would be anti-theist. IMO, my journey,and that of the MoQ is a search for "truth", knowlegde and understanding. It appears to me that, at least through the eleventh chapter of Lila, that Pirsig's aurguments are that of the MoQ's acceptance of the "mystical" side of existance, where as the latter chapters pertain more to building levels of "reality". This is a beautiful concept to me in that it acknowledges there can be more than just "stuff" and death. It also apears to me that it would fly into the face of atheists who hold on too strongly to science and evolution. I find myself in the middle and more agnostic, but do see myself leaning towards "theist", but not in the sense of there being a "God" that sits on a thrown with a big book, but more that we are all interconnected in static patterns of energy led and directed by dynamic quality towards ultimate organization and perfection. Bruce Yes, Bruce, that makes sense to me. It may be an attitude, we are speaking of. I believe that if one employs critical thinking and questions everything, employs reductionist science and philosophy as well as expansionist, and then concludes that there must be an overriding force (if you will), which is benevolent and in our favor, this could be considered to be the act of a positivist. On the other hand, if one believes in an impersonal universe (to use Camus term) which is governed by random events and has no real meaning outside of personal entertainment, then perhaps that outcome is more on the negative side. He who believes that evolution is based on cooperation rather than competition, who believes that there is an overarching truth to morality rather than a subjective selfish point to it, who believes that an act of good is for the greater good rather than to get what one wants, travels the world with a greater purpose. If our beliefs are meant to provide us with the most positive awareness, a belief that all is good certainly helps. In the end, we will never know. Many of the great thinkers have come to the conclusion of a benevolent force. The present age of science dictates that if we understand something, this negates a god of some sort. I do not see the logic there, many great physicists negate this negation. To believe that Quality exists is no different. Quality could be considered a God, not in the negative sense that many in this forum associate it with, but as a positive force for good. If I wake up to a world where Quality exists, events that I thought were trivial, or negative, become life affirming. The glass is half full. The anti-theist view is against theists. It needs to diminish the position of theism to elevate itself. The theist does not need to diminish the position of science or existentialism to feel good. In my view God has no human attributes what-so-ever, there is no throne, only an underlying current. If I catch that current, I am free to watch the world go by. Mark Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
