Arlo > [Dave] > So RMP claim that capitalism was not an intellectual pattern at the time of > the emergence of socialism is just not valid.
> [Arlo] > That's never been how I read that passage, Dave. It sounds like your setting > up a strawman. [Dave] I'm not setting up a strawman. Just before the section I quoted RMP flat out says: [RMP] > That's what neither the socialists nor the capitalists ever got figured out. > From a static point of view socialism is more moral than capitalism. It's a > higher form of evolution. It is an intellectually guided society, not just a > society that is guided by mindless traditions. [Dave] DMB then responded, IMHO like you with a liberal bias, saying no, no, no the socialism RMP is referring to is the "good" kind and then goes on a paste the RMP quote that confirms RMP IS talking about "bad" kind of Socialism ,Communism, and Facism. And capitalism is, non-intellectual, "mindless traditions" [Arlo} > Of course "capitalism" as an economic theory is an "intellectual pattern". > What Pirsig is saying is that capitalism champions the domination of social > patterns over intellectual patterns, while "socialism" (also an intellectual pattern) champions the domination of intellectual patterns over social patterns. [Dave] And I say you, DMB, RMP, and any others of the liberal persuasion can't have it both ways. You can't on one hand say socialism is moral, intellectual pattern superior to capitalism. Then turn right around and claim as you did above that capitalism is an intellectual pattern. Or if you can then MoQ has a fatal flaw and an intellectual pattern like RMP original definition of quality is "whatever you (or I) like." Which is exactly what I have been trying to illustrate. In that case IMHO choice is left up to political bias not a "rational" intellectual theory of any kind. >[Arlo] > So again, its not about capitalism as a theory being a "social pattern", its > that capitalism (according to Pirsig, and I agree) facilitates placing social > patterns in charge of intellectual patterns. [Dave] So again you are saying that RMP did not say what he said. He said that "a society guided by" [capitalism] is guided by "mindless traditions". But they work. But with as you below with serious problems: >[Arlo] > Another thing to consider, is that capitalism as a mode of production and > distribution is as much a victim of the S/O illness as science. Much of ZMM is > a criticism of the result of an S/O foundation to modern practices of > production and consumption. The rampant materialism that drives the American > economy is seen as the result of a Quality-blind cultural orientation that > results not only in the emptiness of factory production but the turning to the > "vendors of style". I'll let Ham answer for me from another response to this thead: > As for all this talk about the "morality of Socialism" as opposed to the > "greed of Capitalism", > Speaking for myself, even if it were true that centralized power and state > control are necessary for an "optimally effective" economy, I would opt for > the preservation of individual liberty and free enterprise. Exactly. But to correct the errors of capitalism we need to figure out a way to shift to an economic system which more accurately weights a much wider array of values with as few impositions of government(s) as possible. Valuisticly yours, Dave Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
