*The first is the Sophist route of pandering to the audience's assumptions (otherwise called "communicating").
*Is the above "ironic"? This article: http://www.utoronto.ca/mcluhan/tsc_plato_critique_sophists.htm confirms Pirsig's good opinion of the Sophist school(the first one)as founders of Philosophy and teachers of wisdom. They were there at the transition from oral to written communication. It must have been a time of dynamic tension. We are indebted(irony alert) to Plato and Aristotle for what remains of Socrates legacy. citation: "Socrates was an ancient Greek Philosopher but we only know about Socrates and his works from the writings of Plato because no manuscripts survived past the middle ages and there are still no manuscripts from Socrates available today. Socrates was the most influential, controversial and original person in Greek culture and philosophy but we have no manuscripts other than Plato’s mention of him and his work from Plato’s writings. There are no surviving manuscripts of Socrates yet we accept his work as valid." Plato was a student of Socrates. Aristotle was a student of Plato. Alexander was a student of Aristotle. And Alexander conquered the world and died. I see a trend to an increasing consolidation of power or the attempt to rule others, both politically and intellectually. I do not hold Socrates responsible because we have no reliable account of his views. Gareth. On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Matt Kundert <[email protected]>wrote: > > Gareth said: > My question is how can irony be used to get others to > believe as you do(the purpose of your statement)? On a > personal basis irony subverts friendship and acceptance. In > this instance irony would have limited rhetorical use. In the > marketplace of ideas irony directed to ideas would likely > map those concepts which you oppose. Rhetoric (irony) in > the political struggle for the supremacy of agenda negative > advertising would be very useful. I would be pleased if you > could post a few examples and I could test my hypothesis > in discussion with you, sort of reading between the lines of > Socrates' mission. > > Matt: > I have to apologize, but I'm not exactly clear about what > we are talking about anymore. > > Your question, "how can irony be used to get others to > believe as you do?" I think has to be answered > negatively--irony can't, or at least, if it ended up doing so, > it would be out of luck. Alexander Nehamas' book, The Art > of Living, has an amazing section on irony in the dialogues, > and how Socrates couldn't have been promoting specific > beliefs. Stanley Fish's book, Self-Consuming Artifacts, > likewise has an excellent reading of the Phaedrus as > exemplifying two approaches, the rhetorical and the > dialectical. *The first is the Sophist route of pandering to > the audience's assumptions (otherwise called > "communicating"). * The second is the Socratic route, of > challenging assumptions, part of which is done through > irony (which obfuscates intention, as I think you see). > Fish says interestingly, too, that for Socrates and Plato, > the exercise of dialectic merely clears away belief, it > does not plant any (which, come to think of it, has been a > stand-by understanding of the Socratic elenchus for years). > > Oh, and in my circle of friends, irony is the local custom and > shibboleth. Rather than subversion, it _is_ the sign of > acceptance. > > Matt > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
