Hello John, I can become miffed if told I'm wrong, but I feel absolutely mortified to be told I'm right. I am very , very certain that I've NEVER had an original idea. Besides I am no self, have no essence, there is no core of 'my experiences' apart from the flow of ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent organic, biological, social and intellectual patterns. I did like the what Jacques Ellul wrote.
Thank you. Marsha On Apr 10, 2010, at 2:17 PM, John Carl wrote: > I couldn't find my copy of Jacques Ellul's Humiliation of the Word, so Lu > ordered got me one on e-bay and I started reading it again, in the light of > recent dialogues on this forum. > > I'm finding gold. > > For Matt: > > "The important thing is that the unique value of language lies in truth. > Language is not bound to reality, but to its capacity to create this > different universe, which you can call surreal, meta-real or metaphysical. > For the sake of convenience we will call it the order of truth. The word > is the creator, founder and producer of truth. > > Note carefully that I am not establishing any hierarchy in this connection, > from a mediocre reality with no value, ascending toward a transcendent > truth. I merely establish two different orders. Rather than speaking of > Truth, at this point I am still dealing just with the order of truth (which > is also, to be sure, the order of untruth, error and falsehood!). Nor am I > saying that language has nothing to do with reality. We will examine this > relationship later. I am, instead, looking for specificity, and in this > case it resides in the fact that nothing besides language can reach or > establish the order of truth." > > Isn't that similar to Rorty's "conversation"? > > > For Marsha, a passage in praise of ambiguity and poetry and spiders: > > "Language deals with connotations and overtones. It takes it place in the > center of an infinitely delicate spider's web, whose central structure is > fine, rigorous, and dense. As you move away from the center, the web > becomes larger and distended, until it reaches incoherence, at its edge, > where it sends off threads in every directions. Some of these threads go a > great distance, until they arrive at invisible spots where the web is > anchored. This complex web is a marvel which is never the same, not for me > at different points in time, nor for another person. > > The spoken Word puts the web in motion so that waves sweep through it and > cause lights to flicker. The waves induce vibrations that are different for > the other person and for me. The word is uncertain. Discourse is ambiguous > and often ambivalent. Some foolishly try to reduce language to something > like algebra, in which each world would have a mathematically precise > meaning, and only one meaning. Each would would be put in a straitjacket, > having only meaning so that we would know with scientific precision what we > were saying. > > But the blessed uncertainty of language is the source of all its richness. > I do not know exactly how much of my message the other person hears, how > they interpret it, or what they will retain of it. I know that a kind of > electric current is established between us; words penetrate the other, and I > have the feeling that they either reacts positively or else reject what I > have said. I can interpret their reaction, and then the relationship will > rebound, accompanied by a rich halo of overtones. They do no understand, > and I see that. So I speak again, weaving another piece of cloth, but this > time with a different design. I come up with what I think will reach them > and be perceived by them. The uncertainty of meaning and the ambiguity of > language inspire creativity. It is a matter of poetics, but not just the > esthetics of poetry. There is a poetics of language and of relationships > also. We must not limit this poetics to language, which must be constantly > rewoven, but remember that the relationship is *also* involved. > > Language requires that we recommence this relationship, which is always > uncertain. I must disavow it over and over again, through sharp > questioning, explanation, and verbal interchange." > > > There. According to Ellul anyway, she's been doing it right all along. > > > JC > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
