Steve, MarshaV, John, DMB, and all, I love this list so far. It's quite unusual to be able to discuss such controversial issues in such a civil manner. You all are to be credited.
I'm beat tonight. I've been out exercising and trying to rid my driveway of several tons of oak pollen. And the pollen has gotten the best of me. I'll do my best to reply to this and other posts tomorrow. In the meantime, in preparation for my answer. Tell me what you know of Joseph Campbell's writings. Thanks, Jon On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Steven Peterson <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Ok, so where do human rights come from? > > Best, > Steve > > On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Jon Bennett <[email protected]> wrote: > > MarshaV, > > Again Marshsa, how do you determine reality. > > What is your epistemology. Did you arrive at the definition of reality > given > > below through the use of your reason, your senses, or did you have a > > revelation from "quality". > > > > Or did you get this definition from the revealed truth of another, who > wrote > > it in a book. > > > > >From a political standpoint, let me say unequivocally, absolutely, as an > > objective truth, fact or whatever you choose to call it, that the rights > of > > man, individual liberty, including their protection in law, and political > > institutions that protect them, did not and could not ever have arisen > from > > such a definition of reality as you have just given. > > > > To the contrary, you have defined reality in a way that invites, and has > > historically resulted, in tyranny. Ideas have consequences. > > > > Jon > > > > > > Reality is Quality(Dynamic Quality(unpatterned experience)/static > > quality(patterned experience(inorganic,biological,social&intellectual > > patterns))) > > > > So what do you have in mind for Truth with a capital T? Or are you > talking > > about politics with a small t? > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Apr 17, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> > >> > Hi MarshaV, > >> > > >> > I am interested in Truth with a capital T, as Francis Shcaeffer would > >> say. > >> > Much to be said on this, but for starters, its not truth as I or as > you > >> or > >> > as anybody wishes it. It's Truth that IS regardless of what you think > >> about > >> > it, or if you even understand or perceive it. > >> > > >> > The first thing that strikes me about our current crisis of truth, is > >> that > >> > we should even ask what it means. Would you ask what a lie means, what > >> > deceit, falsehood, or error means. But we are in such a crisis and > that > >> is > >> > what P's books address. > >> > > >> > Political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, the > >> > understanding of human rights and the laws that protect these did not > >> arise > >> > out of a vacuum, out of a nothingness. They arose out of a very > specific > >> > understanding of Truth, with a capital T. And the elimination, the > denial > >> of > >> > those freedoms and rights, arise out of a specific "understanding" , > >> truly a > >> > misunderstanding of truth, as well. > >> > > >> > Even the understanding of an individual, whether an individual human > >> being, > >> > or individual human rights, or individual laws that protect and > preserve > >> > them, or the idea of an individual thing or entity, are based in > >> > philosophical and ultimately theological assumptions. > >> > > >> > The very reason I am free to write and you are free to read these > words, > >> is > >> > based on just such philosophical and theological assumptions that were > >> > extended to moral, legal, and political institutions. > >> > > >> > And where different assumptions prevail we would not be able to speak > so > >> > freely. All cultures, religions, and philosophies do not lead to the > same > >> > understanding and protections of human rights and individual > liberties. > >> > > >> > That is why we should seek a genuine, a True understanding of history > and > >> > the ideas behind it. And why we should work out our paradigms with > "fear > >> and > >> > trembling". > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Jon > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:43 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Hello Jon, > >> >> > >> >> On Apr 16, 2010, at 11:57 PM, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> But beyond this-what makes something good anyway? What makes > something > >> >> just. > >> >>> You must start by telling me your epistemology. You must have a > valid > >> way > >> >> of > >> >>> knowing truth, or you are playing a wishing game. > >> >> > >> >> What type of truth are you wishing for? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> And without such a reliable foundation, someone will impose their > truth > >> >> on > >> >>> you, and take away your liberty. > >> >> > >> >> And in the light of truth as you wish it, how is this statement true? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Marsha > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
