[Marsha] I consider Bo correct in labeling the Intellectual Level SOM because Intellectual Static Patterns of Value are reified concepts and the rules for their manipulation.
[Arlo] Which is, of course, NOT SOM. At least not SOM in any way that Pirsig talked about it. In fact, this is simply a tautology. All levels are "reified" stable patterns of preference. This does not make them "SOM". [Marsha] Intellectual patterns create false boundaries, giving the illusion of independence, or 'thingness'. [Arlo] Intellectual patterns create boundaries, yes. Those boundaries that envelop the "subject-object" primacy are those that are SOM. Those that do not, are not. SOM is, to restate the above, those particular patterns which do not understand the "illusion". [Marsha] The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level where the subjective is supposedly stripped from the experience. [Arlo] No. The fourth level is stable patterns of preference involving the manipulation of symbolically encoded experience. The "subject is supposedly stripped" only in SOM. The MOQ is an intellectual pattern that does not make this mistake (giving primacy to a subject-object dualism). [Marsha] We're all peddling in a s/o format, so why the shock? [Arlo] Well, as I said several times, it makes the central conflict of ZMM meaningless, since intellect was always, and is always, SOM. As I said, this steps up the morass of needing to say that "intellect" is something to be overcome or "transcended". [Marsha] The point of ZMM and LILA is, in my opinion, to point to what is beyond SOM. [Arlo] The point of ZMM and LILA is to expand rationality, not condemn it forever in an SOM prison. The Sophists were not peddling SOM, they were advancing an intellectual foundation that was decisively non-SOM! That was the conflict in ZMM. Aristotle was pushing something else, and this is what Pirsig uncovered in ZMM. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
