Arlo, Btw, I've read 'Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility' by James Carse. I know I can quit this verbal game at any time.
Marsha On May 14, 2010, at 8:05 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > Arlo, > > The ideas of the sophists pretty much died with Pericles and Socrates. To > say the intellectual level could have been different is much like saying > human being could have evolved with wings and flippers: Idle speculation. > > > Marsha > > > > > > On May 14, 2010, at 7:55 AM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> On May 14, 2010, at 7:16 AM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR wrote: >> >>> "Phædrus reads further and further into pre-Socratic Greek thought to find >>> out, and eventually comes to the view that Plato’s hatred of the >>> rhetoricians >>> was part of a much larger struggle in which the reality of the Good, >>> represented by the Sophists, and the reality of the True, represented by the >>> dialecticians, were engaged in a huge struggle for the future mind of man. >>> Truth won, the Good lost, and that is why today we have so little difficulty >>> accepting the reality of truth and so much difficulty accepting the reality >>> of >>> Quality, even though there is no more agreement in one area than in the >>> other." >>> >>> "And yet, Phædrus understands, what he is saying about Quality is somehow >>> opposed to all this. It seems to agree much more closely with the Sophists." >>> >>> ""Man is the measure of all things." Yes, that’s what he is saying about >>> Quality. Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists >>> would >>> say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective >>> idealists >>> and materialists would say. The Quality which creates the world emerges as a >>> relationship between man and his experience. He is a participant in the >>> creation of all things." (ZMM) >>> >>> The intellectual patterns emerging from the Sophists were not SOM. They were >>> clearly something better. And it is HERE that the SOM infestation of Western >>> culture began. And it is HERE that Pirsig begins his treatise on correcting >>> this. >>> >>> Of course, you are more than welcome to rewrite ZMM and LILA to suit your >>> SOL >>> needs as Bo suggests (its the only way you can make an SOL even come close >>> to >>> making any sort of "sense"). >> >> >> Hi Arlo, >> >> RMP does not reference SOM in ZMM. In my interpretation the Sophists see the >> world as relative. Plato&company see the world filled with fixed, concrete , >> external >> objects; objects of knowledge, objects of study, SOM. Experience as >> relative, >> dependent of value, is what Phaedrus recognized in the sophists as 'better'. >> >> >> There is no rewriting, there is a difference in interpretation. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
