Khoo said:
One of my observations previously has been the scant work done by Western
philosophers on Eastern civilisations. Even then those few tend to see it from
the Western worldview, invariably the SOM perspective. In this view it is
difficult to understand and even accept that other cultures and civilisations
had evolve their own versions of intellect and arrived at an intellectual level
quite different from the SOM-dominated Western version.
dmb says:
If it's any consolation, there are at least a few decent Western interpreters
of Eastern ideas. Just the other day I heard an old recording of an Alan Watts
lecture in which he describes the differences between Indian philosophy,
Chinese philosophy and Western philosophy in a way you'd likely appreciate.
What Horse referred to it as "process philosophy", Alan Watts says the Chinese
view "reality as a verb". which is the same idea in different terms. and if
Sneddon's Master's thesis is any indication (It compares the MOQ to Whitehead's
process philosophy), Pirsig's is a process philosophy too. In Hindu culture, he
says, the basic view is that "reality is a drama". This is similar to the
Chinese view insofar as they both view reality as an ongoing event that's full
of conflict. The basic Western view is that reality is a thing, usually a made
thing, like a clay pot. (As our creation story goes, Adam was molded from the
dust and God breathed life into it.) You can see how "the m
etaphysics of substance" and "scientific materialism" could grow out of that
basic view of reality. You can see how the philosophical distinction between
mind and matter could have grown out of that mythical distinction between the
dust and God's breath of life. And so it goes in the East, no? The ancient
myths becomes present philosophies and the present philosophies still bare
their mark.
Alan Watt specifically talks about the subject-object distinction in connection
with this and this explains why the East doesn't have a problem with SOM,
saying essentially the same thing Pirsig said about SOM being Western. He even
talks about the structure of our language as a factor the way Pirsig does.
Then of course there is Northrop's "Meeting of East and West", Pirsig's
original inspiration. One Quarter of Joseph Campbell's "Masks of God" is
devoted to Eastern Mythology and he seems to understand these sorts of
differences too. There is no way to truly get outside their Western
perspectives and there must be some things that are nearly impossible to
translate but the ones I read all seem quite respectful of the fact that other
views can be excellent and different at the same time.
Khoo said:
Horse brought this out earlier in his reference to process metaphysics. A wiki
reference to Ancient Greek thought says that the formal development of this
theory begins with Heraclitus's fragments in which he posits the nous, the
ground of Becoming, as agon, or "strife of opposites" as the underlying basis
of all reality defined by change. That balance and conflict were the
foundations of change and stability in the flux of existence. Plato and
Aristotle have however posited true reality as "timeless", based on permanent
substances, whilst processes are denied or subordinated to timeless substances.
dmb says:
Right, and Pirsig paints it, that's the crucial moment in the West when the
Sophists were slandered as relativists and the timeless realities were set
apart from the ever-changing empirical reality. Gold was the standard because
it was incorruptible. It didn't rust or tarnish. In a world where flowers
whither, eggs go rotten, marble cracks and people die, change was a form of
evil. A religion that promised eternal life and streets of gold was bound to
become popular in world like that, eh? The metaphysics of substance extends all
the way to heaven, I guess.
Khoo said:
The Metaphysics of Quality provides the tools to compare two separate
civilisations based on two different Metaphysics by unifying them under one
Metaphysics of Value. For that matter do we have the tools to understand and
appreciate the Metaphysics of every other respectable civilisation Man has
spawned?
dmb says:
The world is too small. It has to be tried. And they say you don't really
understand your own culture until you really see another's. Pirsig and others
make me think it's quite possible to understand and appreciate the East to some
extent. But I do wonder how much is lost on me or even lost my favorite
translators.
Khoo said:
... And perhaps the key to tapping into Quality has less to do with discussing
it than living it.
dmb says:
Well, it's definitely good to get outside and I'd go crazy if I didn't get big
doses of silence every day. But I'd like to think that discussing Quality can
be a high quality endeavor, that doing philosophy can be an art form. Pirsig's
use of the art gallery analogy suggest that. His characterization of physicists
as creative artists fits neatly with this idea too.
You'd think paintball would count as an art form too. At least there is some
paint involved, but no. It's just fun. Painting by numbers doesn't count
either, and that involves brushes and a canvas as well as paint. Counts against
you to paint that way, in fact, unless you're a child. Stand up comedy and
poetry can be art forms and they're nothing but words, so you never know what's
gonna be art.
Mon, Jul 19, 2010, david buchanan
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