Thanks Ham, I'll see if I can get the books that you suggest.  

Marsha   




On Sep 7, 2010, at 2:43 AM, Ham Priday wrote:

> 
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:28 AM, X Acto quoted Ron, who had asked:
> 
>> But the question that is avoided is not whether or not the idea of
>> "being as one" is technologically superior but rather is "being as one"
>> better evolutionarily than "being as in flux" and dynamic.
>> 
>> Is this technological superiority better evolutionarily?
> 
> Marsha replied (also with a question):
>> Have the purposes chosen by Western intellect provided goodness?
>> I'd say yes, but mostly no.  I think RMP has asked the question,
>> Krishnamurti and the Dalai Lama certainly have, with all our
>> technological advancement are humans suffering less.  Tough
>> to know, but again my guess would be mostly no they are not
>> suffering less. ...
>> 
>> While understanding that all is Value, I, personally, do not like
>> to make value judgements. If I do, moments later I can think of
>> twelve other reasons why I might be wrong.  But it is some peoples
>> preference to proclaim judgements.  Maybe I'm suggesting I do not
>> think you question can be answered.
>> 
>> What do you think?  Have I gone off in a different direction?
> 
> "Being" is an ontological term which conventionally defines "the quality or 
> state of having existence."  In other words, it refers to ontology.  Being is 
> neither "one" nor "many" but, rather, the very essence or nature of IS-ness. 
> Marsha is talking about is morality -- i.e., the state of being good, bad, or 
> indifferent.  In Existentialism moral issues are a function of free will.  
> Jean-Paul Sartre and the existentialists were persuaded that existence 
> precedes essence, which leads to the moralistic conclusion that "man is 
> condemned to freedom" in a deterministic universe without meaning.
> 
> I cut my wisdom teeth on Sartre's tome "Being and Nothingness", so I believe 
> I qualify to address Ron's question.  Sartre was a phenomenologist, like 
> Husserl and Heidegger who influenced him, but he's credited for fathering the 
> philosophy of Existentialism, founded on the concept of Being (or 
> "Beingness") as ultimate reality. Sartre himself described Being as having 
> two aspects: being-IN-itself and being-FOR-itself.  Being-in-itself can only 
> be approximated metaphysically, since the human experience of beingness by 
> nature takes the form of being-for-itself.  The being of Consciousness, for 
> example, is the process of becoming the person that will be added to recorded 
> history.
> 
> Sartre also postulated that Being "is the foundation of nothingness as the 
> nihilation of [one's] own being"; so that self-reflection, in Sartrean terms, 
> is an act of nihilation. "In short, every effort to conceive of the idea of a 
> being which would be the foundation of its being results inevitably in 
> forming that of a being which, contingent as being-in-itself, would be the 
> foundation of its own nothingness"  This gets a bit complicated, but suffice 
> it to say that, like Pirsigians, Sartre believed that the subjective self is 
> illusory, and that an individual's "true being" is its objective "facticity" 
> which can only be known posthumously.
> 
> In fact, if you substitute "being-in-itself" for the Quality of Pirsig's 
> philosophy, and replace his "patterns" with "being-for-itself", you may note 
> a parallel that (for me, at least) puts the MoQ in the existential category. 
> As an Essentialist, of course, I regard any philosophy that is founded on 
> existence or being rather than an absolute source as a form of existentialism.
> 
> This is an interesting topic that has elicited a variety of diverse ideas. I 
> hope the Sartrean slant helps to clarify some of your issues.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Ham
> 
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