John said:
... When you think about it, religion flows naturally from 4th level patterns.
That is, the mutually agreed upon intellectual patterns are what produce the
social patterns by which any society derives its rules, punishments and
controls. Society is the static fall-out of intellect. There! I like that one
best. "Religion is the static fallout of intellect". Stands on its own.
It's the staticity of the good. Religion is the static fallout of intellect.
Got a keeper there, I think.
dmb says:
That's backwards. That's like saying alchemy is the static fallout of chemistry
or astrology comes from astronomy. According to everything we know about human
history tells us that society and religion existed for a long, long time before
science and philosophy came along. C'mon John, you're entitled to your own
opinions, but your claim doesn't just defy the MOQ. It defies all the known
facts.
Were you home-schooled by creationists? Do dinosaurs figure into your picture
of man's religious history? Just kidding.
Besides that, religion is only primarily social. It's a domain, not a level.
Religion can evolve and so it can be intellectual too. You know, the views of
philosophical theologians like Royce would be an example of an intellectualized
version religion. And if you are a mystic, religion is a static system that
forms in the wake of a dynamic experience and/or a static system designed to
precipitate such an experience.
Besides that, society is only primarily social. It's a domain, not a level.
Society can evolve and so it can be intellectual too. Pirsig's view is that an
intellectually guided society is superior to a society that's guided by
tradition. It's safe to say that our culture has both social and intellectual
values within it and so does everyone who lives in that culture. Guidance or
dominance of intellect doesn't mean the exclusion of social level values. It's
just about which values should be given priority in the cases where they clash
with each other. In the same way that social level rules do not eliminate sex
and procreation but only restrict and channel it, intellectual control only
means taming certain social level values. There is a certain continuity of
authority despite the vast difference between the divinely sanctioned
hereditary king and our elected President. We can see how the same basic
function has evolved toward more intellectual values. The President certainly
has great authority, but it comes with many legal constraints and limits.
Ideally, it is a position of responsibility and the authority he or she has is
only a tool for carrying out that responsibility.
Backwards, John. Evolution doesn't go backwards.
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